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Second Referendum

(245 Posts)
Neweternal Fri 07-Dec-18 19:20:22

Ok I don't understand I knew it was a risk leaving and it may initially make us poorer but for many reasons thinking 20 years on I felt it is the right thing for the country to leave the EU.

Second referendum if it transpires I will vote the same way. Yes Brexit is hard but you don't give up something because it's difficult. I have a chum who has shifted from remain to Brexit which surprised me.

What happens when and if the second referendum is again leave? To remainers accept we KNEW it wasn't going to be easy but we want sovereignty and not tied to the EU.

There was a bit of arrogance prior to the referendum with IN almost thinking they had it in the bag, same thing now!

Maryjoyce Fri 07-Dec-18 19:24:59

Rather nuts to think there should be a second referendum just because they didn’t like the outcome of the first isn’t it.
I wonder if there will be a 3rd if the vote was to stay with the idiots in Europe this time

1tisILeClerc Fri 07-Dec-18 19:26:20

{What happens when and if the second referendum is again leave? To remainers accept we KNEW it wasn't going to be easy but we want sovereignty}
Rather than 'feeling' try thinking.
Sovereignty never went away, at lease no more than by engaging with any other countries, assuming you want to trade.

jasjas1973 Fri 07-Dec-18 20:12:21

Mays deal wont get through,
Parliament wont allow a no-deal,
Tory & DUP wont vote for a GE,
EU wont renegotiate...
that leaves what exactly? revoke art50 ? would be undemocratic (even as a remainer i can see that!)

So, give it back to the people to decide what they want!

We have GE's every 4 to 5 years or 2 years if your May and don't like the result!

Its not best of 3 etc etc its necessary because there are no other options and how can more democracy ever be less democratic?

If at the end of the day, the UK voted to Leave with no-deal, at least we'd have some time to prep for that and ensure little chaos with meds and flights etc.

GD12 Fri 07-Dec-18 20:14:42

I agree jasjas but no deal is the default position and Parliament can't stop it,technically.

Ultima, Parliament is sovereign and if its deadlock then it has to go back to a 2nd referendum on the deals in front of us.

GD12 Fri 07-Dec-18 20:18:18

Newetwernal, as you said we want sovereignty. What you are seeing in Parliament at the moment, the debates and votes is sovereignty in action and if MPs can't decide and block a no deal then it has to go back to the people.

Neweternal Fri 07-Dec-18 20:23:38

@jasjas1973 made very good points.

1tisILeClerc Fri 07-Dec-18 20:24:07

The reason that the WA 'deal' that Theresa is trying to sell is not particularly good for the UK is that it was (I think) mostly drafted by the EU to prevent the UK buggering up the EU. Part of the reason for this being necessary is because the UK Government had pissed around for well over 2 years and not actually negotiated, and along the way has been totally unprofessional, discourteous and insulting to heads of other countries.

Neweternal Fri 07-Dec-18 20:28:01

@GD12 and if it goes back to the people and it's leave again are you content that the people's vote and the choice was yet again leave? If you watch BBC Question time the always more remainers on the panel. This and the general media coverage distorts people's views and would have you think that many people would now be "sensible" and vote remain.

GD12 Fri 07-Dec-18 20:28:58

^^When you have Patel today saying the UK should threaten to starve Ireland, how do you even negotiate with people like that? May also brought all her problems on herself by triggering A50 before she knew what they wanted and by bossing herself in with her red lines.

GD12 Fri 07-Dec-18 20:31:49

Neweternal. If it goes back to the people with a the deals on the table. May's deal, no deal and remain then people now know what they're voting for and the deadlock in Parliament would be broken. I've no confidence at all that remain would win FWIW.

Neweternal Fri 07-Dec-18 20:33:46

@GD12 yeah but that would split the vote 3 ways hardly fair on people wanting to leave the EU. I would prefer no deal or remain to that.

GD12 Fri 07-Dec-18 20:34:54

Neweternal, yes fair enough.

Neweternal Fri 07-Dec-18 20:35:05

@GD12 Would you accept a leave in a second referendum?

GD12 Fri 07-Dec-18 20:38:02

Yes. Not much else to say if people now know the deals and implications and they vote for it.

jasjas1973 Fri 07-Dec-18 20:38:25

Why not just have a no-deal/WTO leave with a bare bones agreement on medication, flights but nothing else V Remain as we are ?

After all, no point having Mays agreement as its been rejected by Parliament.

Personally, i would accept if UK voted to Leave, they would then be under no illusions.

1tisILeClerc Fri 07-Dec-18 20:40:29

As I have said on other threads, the UK has now crapped in the bed and for the sake of the EU should leave. Some other EU leaders are polite enough to say the UK would be welcomed back, but as has been demonstrated over the last 40 odd years the UK is not prepared to put it's heart into Europe. No deal crashing out would be catastrophic so it only leaves the 'TM' deal which has been declared by all 27 in the EU as being all the UK will get. The EU is now almost at the point where it can just walk away. There is other more important stuff within Europe that needs attending to.

recently Fri 07-Dec-18 20:41:49

I want to remain but I would accept a leave vote on 3 conditions:
1) We are given a clear idea of what the deal is and means for the country. (Not just a vague remain/leave choice that is open to interpretation).
2) Electoral rules are adhered to (no overspending without consequences for the Leave campaign).
3) All British citizens are given a vote as they are all affected. (For the record, I know EU citizens in the UK are also affected but that would be more problematic legally ) It is disgraceful and undemocratic that not all British citizens were allowed to vote.

MissSusanScreams Fri 07-Dec-18 20:43:19

You do realise the democray is about voting. Voting all the time. Constantly asking the people what they want. It’s not vote once and then fucking lump it forever.

This country is really shit at referendums. They are supposed to be advisory not cast iron- not allowed to change your mind-just deal with it forever. That there is some I-voted-Leave-but-I’m-afraid-i’d-lose-because-my-side-cheated-the-first-time.

DaffoDeffo Fri 07-Dec-18 20:48:07

What questions would be on the referendum though?

If parliament doesn't vote the deal through and let's assume they don't, leave or remain as options aren't really on the table

The EU has said we can't renegotiate

So what are we asked? Remain or accept May's deal? Remain or try and go back to the EU to leave with a different deal (even though it's apparently not possible)?

I just struggle to see what happens next with this

Badbadbunny Fri 07-Dec-18 20:53:56

Even if we somehow stay in the EU (second referendum or not), it's delusional to think the pro/anti EU question will go away. Either UKIP or another anti EU party will start getting votes and MPs again and sooner or later, it'll become a big enough issue to dominate politics again. The country is split, all three main political parties are split. If we remain in the EU, the politicians are going to have to deal with the core reasons why people want to leave and not just carry on sweeping it under the carpet like they've done for the last 30/40 years. Otherwise, in another 10 or 15 years, the anti EU party will be so strong again that it will cause another in/out referendum. The problem areas need resolving whether we're in or out.

jasjas1973 Fri 07-Dec-18 21:01:24

@Badbadbunny

i disagree, UKIP never won a constituency and their max vote was 3,7m in 2015.

In 2010, EU membership wasn't in voters top 10 concerns, DC called the vote to try and heal the divisions in the tory party, which as we can see was an overwhelming success!

However, inequality in the UK needs urgent addressing, too many many struggling on 25k ish and a very large number of people doing amazingly well, not using public services and not giving a shit for these services or those that rely on them.

Neweternal Fri 07-Dec-18 21:06:22

@recently what official British citizens did not get the vote? Polish and other EU nationals do not get the vote at general elections for very good reasons.

DaffoDeffo Fri 07-Dec-18 21:10:37

UKIP is dissolving

Another party will start in its wake but UKIP as we know it is falling apart

1tisILeClerc Fri 07-Dec-18 21:14:42

British citizens living in Europe did not get a chance to vote IIRC. There is a 'cutoff' of 15 years I think but none got the vote. That would have been best part of a Million who would be likely to vote Remain, since they are exercising the rights as an EU AND UK citizen.

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