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A question about the Irish/Northern Ireland border

(64 Posts)
Heatherjayne1972 Fri 07-Dec-18 10:54:40

So was chatting with a friend about all things brexit and he wants to know how come places like Canada North America and Mexico ( and other countries) can exist side by side harmoniously. ( ish) when they are sovereign states Yet there’s tension on the NI/ROI border
I’ve explained the good Friday agreement being an international legally binding thing / history/ the troubles / Ireland being its own sovereign state Etc
But he thinks the border should be ‘handled ‘ by the UN. Like north and South Korea
What would you say to this ?

PositivelyPERF Fri 07-Dec-18 12:16:22

I see knife crime in England is still on the rise. I really don’t know why the English are doing that to each other. Do you not think you should sort yourself out, purits?

kenandbarbie Fri 07-Dec-18 12:17:15

It is not defeatist, there has been an ongoing conflict for 800 years. The potential terrorists aren't going to go away just because you say so.

VictoryOrValhalla Fri 07-Dec-18 12:18:16

Defeatist attitude? So what do expect the everyday Joe Blogss to do? We know all hell would break loose if a border was enforced. Acknowledging this does not make us defeatist. We can not prevent certain groups acting as they will. Do you remember the troubles at all? Do you think that happened because the normal every day bloke was too defeatist?

fiadhflower Fri 07-Dec-18 12:19:03

The point is the NI border is basically invisible. The other borders you mention aren’t invisible - they are policed, patrolled etc.

People cross the NI/ROI border to go to school, work, hospital etc several times a day and many don’t see it as going to a different country. There are farms where the border cuts them in half, but it’s invisible so the farmers can move between their fields without passports.

A physical border is very different - it would make people’s lives more difficult (queues etc, not to mention the political implications) and NI didn’t vote for that. They’ve been lumped with a horrible situation because people in England etc didn’t stop to think about NI when voting for Brexit.

Brocade Fri 07-Dec-18 12:20:14

Do solve it for us, purits. Tell us the magical solution to the long-reaching effects of colonialism. Or hop into your time machine to 1609 and prevent the plantation of Ulster.

purits Fri 07-Dec-18 12:25:25

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

bellinisurge Fri 07-Dec-18 12:26:16

Oh dear @purits , are the naughty Irish people spoiling your Brexit feelings?

VictoryOrValhalla Fri 07-Dec-18 12:27:45

I know, it's a disgrace. I'd be embarrassed.

At being occupied? Well some people objected, put up a bit of a fight, but they were given a name. wink

kenandbarbie Fri 07-Dec-18 12:28:14

Just FYI, I'm not even Irish. I don't harp on about history. I just know what happened and have observed how it has been improved. But I see you're just a gf with no real interest in learning or actually solving the problem.

mathanxiety Fri 07-Dec-18 12:29:26

There is tension wrt the border because when it was first drawn on the map by an imperial power it was imposed against the will of the majority on the island. There is a strong feeling both north and south of the border that it is illegitimate.

PositivelyPERF Fri 07-Dec-18 12:30:26

I know, it's a disgrace. I'd be embarrassed I take it you’re embarrassed about the aforementioned rise of knife crime in England, then purist? After all, it’s collective guilt, your talking about. YOU should be ashamed that the English are stabbing each other. Sort it purust, will you?

1tisILeClerc Fri 07-Dec-18 12:36:54

If there is prosperity for all across the whole island of Ireland, ultimately the issue of a border may fade away as an unhappy piece of history. This time is not now, and it may be many tens of years before it gets that way so for the moment it needs treating with respect.

PositivelyPERF Fri 07-Dec-18 12:47:00

Antidotally speaking, from the conversations I’ve been having with my fellow Irish people in the North of Ireland, the balls up that is Brexit is making them lean more towards a united Ireland. If that happens then the uk is going to continue to shrink and be more insular.

dippledorus Fri 07-Dec-18 12:52:59

direct your friend to Paddy Kielty's excellent twitter piece on this subject which will explain it far better than I can.

PennyMordauntsLadyBrain Fri 07-Dec-18 13:00:38

purits showing a smashing display of the anti-Irish sentiment that was flagged a few weeks ago.

The “border” here isn’t manned- there’s no queues or huts for checkpoint agents. There’s barely even a sign- it’s just a continuation of the same motorway. You simply can’t compare it to the Canadian border, because of the unique circumstances which caused it to be set up in the first place.

DH crosses the border every morning for work, along with hundreds of other normal commuters, farmers and students going along their daily business.

I honestly believe people from the rest of the UK should have to do a quick quiz on the history of the Troubles before they’re allowed to comment on this issue- the ignorance displayed even from senior government officials on NI is farcical.

VictoryOrValhalla Fri 07-Dec-18 13:00:56

I’ve reported some of the posts on this thread for their obvious offensivesness and deliberate goading.

I’ve also reported the OP as I don’t believe it was started in good faith at all. I suspect a new attempt at stirring up bad feeling after the recent threads discussing anti Irish sentiment.

PositivelyPERF Fri 07-Dec-18 13:05:40

This is an excellent explanation of Brexit.

m.youtube.com/watch?v=S-VadvQUADw

Here’s Paddy Kielty

mobile.twitter.com/patrickielty/status/1045782711816708096?lang=en

PositivelyPERF Fri 07-Dec-18 13:09:14

Sorry VictoryOrValhalla. Just in case you actually think I have a problem with English people, I was trying to show how ridiculous purist was being. I’ve had enough of the collective bullshite to last me a lifetime. Sarcasm doesn’t come across in type.

VictoryOrValhalla Fri 07-Dec-18 13:12:52

No perf, not your posts at all!

VictoryOrValhalla Fri 07-Dec-18 13:13:30

I understand what you were doing with those posts.

PositivelyPERF Fri 07-Dec-18 13:17:02

Thank you. smile

kenandbarbie Fri 07-Dec-18 13:33:43

Well done mnhq on deleting those goady posts!

dippledorus Fri 07-Dec-18 13:47:23

Thank you @mnhq!!!

GD12 Fri 07-Dec-18 13:57:05

Didn't read the full thread but how can the UN get involved in a border that doesn't exist? If the UK put a border in and the UN "polices" it, the UK have still put a border in, its a border and you can kiss goodbye to the GFA and will be looking at the troubles starting up again.

Eyewhisker Fri 07-Dec-18 14:19:13

I’ll take the OP at face value.

The reason why there would be a problem with a hard border is that many people in ‘Northern Ireland’ believe that Ireland as an island is a single country.

Ireland was invaded and occupied by Britain for centuries. A war was fought 100 years ago, after which Britain withdrew from most of the country. However, it held onto a corner of the country which had a high percentage of the descendants of British settlers (the Protestant/Unionist population).

To the non-settler population, a good analogy would be drawing an international border between Kent and Hampshire and telling the people of Kent that they were no longer English as England started after Kent. The people of Kent I’m sure would be outraged.

So the short answer is that there is tension because the border was artificially imposed by a foreign country and did not reflect the views of Irish people.

This situation is not unique. Palestine and India where the British also decided to play map-drawing have similar tensions.

There are interesting questions as to why the Protestant population didn’t mix with the native Irish. This is common with many British colonies e.g. America, India, Australia but not with other countries e.g. Spain/Portugal where there was much intermarriage with the ‘natives’

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