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WTF is the point of a Brexit debate 2 days before the vote?

(41 Posts)
Bearbehind Thu 29-Nov-18 13:10:30

Just that really.

What are TM and JC trying to achieve?

Yaralie Sun 02-Dec-18 20:15:16

I wish I could believe that but my MP is a member of the ERG.

bellinisurge Sat 01-Dec-18 17:03:52

If everyone who posts in here (regardless of opinion) emailed their MP saying "you must do [whatever it is you believe], your MP would have food for thought before they vote in the meaningful vote. Which may or may not be what Jezza says or TM says.

BakedBeans47 Sat 01-Dec-18 15:55:56

I know how it works bellini. I more meant that the other times we had tv debates they have preceded an election or referendum. In this case, parliament will have debated so there’s no need for a tv one.

bellinisurge Sat 01-Dec-18 15:13:48

If you speak to your MP you do get a say in it. Just not a direct say. It's how our system works. We don't have referenda on everything; we elect our MPs to make decisions and cast votes on our behalf using their best judgment including following a party line. We are rubbish at running referenda properly. Regardless of how you feel about the result of the last one. The Irish do it better.

BakedBeans47 Sat 01-Dec-18 12:58:30

What’s the point of it at all when we don’t get a say on it!

bellinisurge Fri 30-Nov-18 21:58:17

She wants to remind people that even though she is shit, No Deal and/or Corbyn as PM would be much worse.

Stripybeachbag Fri 30-Nov-18 20:45:46

TM has a history of making rubbish decisions and this is just another one.

I understand why she may think it is a good idea and why JC may. He actually came across pretty well in the last GE compared to May.

But I agree with the other ppl - why?

Hasn't TM got more urgent things to do with her time, looking at the state of the country?
TM's real opponents in regard to Brexit are actually in her own party.
Debating is not her strength and she incapable of answering unwelcome questions. This is usually glossed over but it will glaringly obvious here.

A stupid distraction that trivializes Brexit even more.

MyNameIsArthur Fri 30-Nov-18 20:29:22

There is a very interesting book called "How To Lose A Referendum" which explains the history of the UKs relationship with the EU and the reasons that led to people voting to leave the EU. Is worth reading.

MaccaPacca81 Fri 30-Nov-18 14:41:35

I'd prefer to see a debate between May and NHS leaders, doctors, nurses, business leaders, the young, farmers, fishermen etc.

How is this debate going to go?

May: I think we should Brexit!
Corbyn: I think we should Brexit too!
May: Good!
Corbyn: Good!

jasjas1973 Fri 30-Nov-18 12:50:36

I'm with Bear on this one.

What is the point? its MPs she needs to convince, plus this debate could well boost support for a PV, (should WA fail) she is inviting the population in, then saying "no you can't contribute any more"

Bearbehind Fri 30-Nov-18 09:40:23

I didn’t say they were all duped into believing fairies and unicorns.

I know a lot of Leavers who are all livid about TM’s deal but funnily enough they are all well off and close to retirement.

Those who chose it to stick one up to the system, which is what tipped Leave over the line, are going to get a rude awakening when it makes them even worse off.

lljkk Thu 29-Nov-18 22:34:51

It's patronising to say that Leavers were 'duped' into believing in fairies & unicorns. Especially when they go on radio phone ins this week ranting outrage that their Brexit is not being delivered because EU wants to punish us/TMay doesn't really believe/We need David Davis to negotiate/Boris is the man /Why can't we just get on with it/WTO rules are great, etc..

If Leave Voters were innocent duped sheeple, they should be hopping mad at the deceivers, not hopping mad about risk of their unicorn being stolen. I don't think the Leave voters will EVER admit they made a mistake. They'll go to grave insisting the unicorn was out there, but us self-serving Remainers deprived them of it.

Bearbehind Thu 29-Nov-18 22:09:48

Au contraire... the experts said Brexit would make us poorer. & then folk chose Brexit. So they did vote to make selves poorer. It doesn't make sense to me, either, but it is what it is.

I disagree.

The Leavers that tipped this over the line weren’t the ones who can afford to ride this out.

They were the ones who thought things couldn’t get any worse.

They were conditioned to believe all bad news was Project Fear.

How hard their lesson is going to be.

lljkk Thu 29-Nov-18 21:36:24

ps: I do like suggestion of Sturgeon up there with them, though, if one more debater could be admitted, NS is the best rep I could think of, too.

lljkk Thu 29-Nov-18 21:34:59

Au contraire... the experts said Brexit would make us poorer. & then folk chose Brexit. So they did vote to make selves poorer. It doesn't make sense to me, either, but it is what it is.

We pay ££ for healthcare or military or highways. Why not pay ££££ for "sovereignty" and "controlled immigration" like any other public service our taxes are spent on? This is exactly what Brexiters voted for.

Point of televised debate: If afterwards constituents tell MPs to vote for TM's WA, well, that's Brexit, all over, isn't it? "Do X even though you know it's not in our best interests." That is "the will of the people."

FishesaPlenty Thu 29-Nov-18 21:30:17

I think you'll find that all the loudest leavers agree that a bit of economic pain is a small price to pay for taking back control etc. Of course there's not much economic pain when you've got a triple-locked pension under your belt.

Motheroffourdragons Thu 29-Nov-18 21:29:09

If she is so convinced the will of the people is for her to deliver her version of brexit, I don't understand why she wants a debate at all, never mind one with a closet brexiteer anyway.

It's not us she has to convince is it? We are not getting a say on it, for now anyway.

AlphaJuno Thu 29-Nov-18 21:26:13

Don't get it tbh. It's not like a GE has been called. She didn't want to debate with JC at the last one! It's not really a party issue because both parties before the ref were on the same side (remain) officially, although there are leavers in both parties. But both parties have now stated they are going to 'respect the will of the people' 'honour the referendum' and 'get on with it'. JC is going to accept otherwise people would be moaning he was too scared to debate it. He however didn't call it. TM did. But it's not the public that have to decide, it's the mps. Waste of time imo.

Bearbehind Thu 29-Nov-18 21:23:11

But the ‘will of the people’ wasn’t and isn’t to make themselves poorer.

And now it’s confirmed that’s what’s going to happen, it’s not such a convincing argument.

lljkk Thu 29-Nov-18 21:00:04

"How can she do well defending a plan even she has to concede is going to make the country worse off?"

Because it's "The Will of the People".
Fig me, it falls to fervent Remainers like me to defend this crap. We are supposed to suck it up, though, so that's what's been shoved down my throat for last 2.5 yrs. And I will duly keep sucking.

There is no 'good' WA. There is no 'good' Brexit. There are only varying shades of crap. This deal is far better than the worst Brexit. So hey ho, "The People" will get what they voted for and rest of us won't get quite as shafted as we feared. THAT is the 'Good deal for Britain' on the table. The only sort of Brexit there could be.

1tisILeClerc Thu 29-Nov-18 20:08:06

I see 'Remain' as unlikely as too many in the UK don't want it, and would be disruptive if we did. The EU are probably not wanting remain either as the UK has been a thorn in their side for 40 years. Norway with a few pluses is probably around the best that can be done with the materials available although the 'rule taking' element will cause considerable friction.
Much of the world is now governed by 'big business' so in a way individual politics is almost unimportant. I don't know how embedded China is in the UK but Africa and countries around the South China sea are effectively in the Chinese pocket with the vast loans they have received. OK while the going is good but would be pulled up sharply if they want to do something different. Even the USA is (I believe) significantly indebted to China and if Trumps shouting gets too much could cause a big problem.

Bearbehind Thu 29-Nov-18 20:07:37

How can she do well defending a plan even she has to concede is going to make the country worse off?

Even a politician with the gift of the gab would struggle with that.

She’s a dreadful speaker who just recites pre-programmed phrases that will convince no one.

lljkk Thu 29-Nov-18 20:06:35

... TM has done brilliantly fielding criticisms in Commons, recently. She did well on the radio phone in. You may hate her bloody mindedness, but it's saving her reputation now. She has nothing to lose so her reputation is going up.

Butterymuffin Thu 29-Nov-18 20:05:39

It'll be awful. Soundbite city from two people who can't debate well or think on their feet, who both want the impossible but also don't want to come out and say what the real situation is. I can't think of any less illuminating thing you could show on television.

lljkk Thu 29-Nov-18 20:03:12

I think... TM is going to do well in this debate. b/c we all know the WA is as unsellable & has every flaw the Brexiters say it has. Yet we still admire her tenacity in trying to get it thru and her resilience in the face of so much opposition. Pus, she's right that it's the only realistic WA & it does deliver on many key points, not least of stopping UK going off the cliff.

Commons will vote her WA down but her conscience is clear she did the best anyone could have done in her place.

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