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if referendums are bad why are remaniacs not saying we should leave after all we went in based on a 1975 flawed referendum said it was just a common market

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confussssed Sat 17-Nov-18 10:48:34

see subject only logical answers only.

Joysmum Sat 17-Nov-18 10:50:22

My logical answer is that you posted this in the wrong section grin

hugoagogo Sat 17-Nov-18 10:51:56

Can't argue with that!bear

confussssed Sat 17-Nov-18 10:54:04

how do i get it moved apologies.

hugoagogo Sat 17-Nov-18 11:16:34

Click on the report option where three dots are.

HebeMumsnet (MNHQ) Sat 17-Nov-18 11:23:04

Hi OP. We'll move this over to the Brexit board now.

hugoagogo Sat 17-Nov-18 11:35:54

I do think referendums are a poor fit with British democracy which is based on electing representatives.

This doesn't mean that we can just turn back time and overturn any decisions that were made that way.

Leaving the European Union was not the right decision in 2016, because of the enormous difficulties of disentangling ourselves; as we have seen.

It might have been possible to do it by degrees, but once we had announced our intention to leave then it was bound to be torturous and acrimonious.

What a bloody mess.sad

1tisILeClerc Sat 17-Nov-18 11:40:06

Referendums, properly conducted and with strict guidelines and where the various outcomes are planned for are no real problem, is one aspect.
Secondly the world has moved on a bit since 1975, except in some peoples minds and extending the original remit of the common market which was intended as a practical way to bind as many countries within Europe together to reduce the risk of war has been pretty successful.
David Cameron's referendum was a balls up to start with and has gone downhill ever since. It was only an 'advisory' and the criteria for 'pass or fail' were not set.

1tisILeClerc Sat 17-Nov-18 11:43:42

A vote to go down to the shops, yes/no seems OK.
If you then explain that on the way to the shops, there are soldiers who will shoot at you, changes the question significantly.
If you had been told of the risk, it might change your voting decision.

Joysmum Sat 17-Nov-18 11:43:47

I think people tend to make their decisions on how things are now rather than the past.

From my POV I made my decision based on my knowledge of economics and history and that what I did at uni.

Personally I think it’s reasonable to object based on the Maastricht, or Lisbon Treaties.

I’ve also always pointed out that voting in was doing so with as much uncertainty as voting out gives as voting in doesnt just mean you’re in acceptance of the EU as it is today, but that EU policy is to continue to evolve into a closer political, social, legal and economic state.

You’ve only got to look at what the EU was 15 years ago. It’s vastly different and despite being ‘at the table’ we were swept along by these changes and could reform them so we’re powerless anyway!

What’s really sad is how politics for the masses has been changed for the worse by the confirmation bias of social media. Those who don’t agree with you are stupid, thick, selfish, uneducated...

This is why Trump and Brexit have been such a surprise!

Moussemoose Sat 17-Nov-18 11:44:06

Referendums are not appropriate in a representative democracy. They work in places like the Ireland because they are part of their constitution and are well organised and planned.

I don't think referenda are a good fit for then U.K. as this whole debacle is clearly showing.

The 1975 referendum to remain (not join) was equally flawed.

However, the ignorance of the British public on constitutional matters is staggering so while we don't need a referendum, constitutionally or legally, to remain we need a referendum politically.

The public would not accept a change made by Parliament alone so another advisory referendum is needed.

It's a total and utter disasters and we, as a country, should be thoroughly ashamed.

Kewqueue Sat 17-Nov-18 11:46:48

You are wrong in saying that we were told it was "just a common market". There was a big emphasis even then on unity in Europe and the role of the union in promoting European peace - with good reason.

Joysmum Sat 17-Nov-18 11:57:25

Leaving the European Union was not the right decision in 2016, because of the enormous difficulties of disentangling ourselves; as we have seen

Actually that was one of my reasons for wanting out and wanting something more like Iceland, Norway, Switzerland, Canada.

Trouble has always been that it was a yes/no question to whether we would be fully enmeshed or what people wanted instead.

No deal would be suicide as business hasn’t prepared. The majority of trade is with non-EU countries but a huge proportion is with the EU because of our enmeshed relationship. Reminds me of people in unhappy marriages because they are used to the familiar and scared of leaving. Doesn’t mean we couldn’t be better off chasing emerging markets with higher growth. This country has always been bad at spotting changes in the markets and preferring to be a larger fish in a smaller pond that eventually dries up. The loss off major traditional manufacturing industries that are now flourishing elsewhere modernised is example of this.

1tisILeClerc Sat 17-Nov-18 12:23:19

{It’s vastly different and despite being ‘at the table’ we were swept along by these changes and could reform them so we’re powerless anyway!}
Except that being at the table we were involved in writing many of the laws and regulations and even after that we could veto stuff we didn't like and we also had exemptions from ever closer political ties written into our membership agreement.
The unicorn notion that the UK can become a 'manufacturing superpower' again is total fantasy because with the globalisation of manufacturing many other countries have the resources and often cheap labour to 'beat' the UK (now) hands down. You need to think what fantastic 'thing' can the UK do that is so brilliant that no other country can do it. It would have to be REALLY good because unless the UK keeps CU/SM with the EU it will have to still be brilliant even when it has high tariffs placed on it.
Graphene is a possible technology that could transform the world, originally 'discovered' in Manchester. Companies around the world spotted it's brilliance and have snapped up the 'right's to this innovation.

bellinisurge Sat 17-Nov-18 15:04:57

My logical answer is this is old news. We voted. BeLeavers won. They don't like it that May hasn't delivered unicorns so they are very cross. Hopefully they will have a little tantrum but we won't crash out. Because if we crash out, they and everyone else will suffer.

bellinisurge Sat 17-Nov-18 15:07:03

It wasn't sold as just a common market. But a bunch of Leaver babies aren't old enough to remember this.

Moussemoose Sat 17-Nov-18 15:14:48

Doesn’t mean we couldn’t be better off chasing emerging markets with higher growth

We can do that and stay in the EU.

How many times does this need repeating?

Look at the mess we are in and we haven't even left!

bellinisurge Sat 17-Nov-18 15:20:19

The higher growth of emerging markets is nothing like the EU market. 1% growth from a big number is better than 100% growth from a small number. And we won't have the negotiating weight of being in a big economic bloc any more.

1tisILeClerc Sat 17-Nov-18 15:24:24

I think it is BMW who have announced massive expansion in China planned for 4 year's time when a particular Chinese law ruling changes.
MASSIVE opportunity for BMW and they are of course in the EU.

jasjas1973 Sat 17-Nov-18 15:33:19

The majority of trade is with non-EU countries but a huge proportion is with the EU because of our enmeshed relationship

Totally incorrect, we do this trade with the European countries because they are right next to us geographically, my friends company can sell security equipment as easily to a buyer in Paris as easily as he can to one in Plymouth, to sell to a buyer in Perth (regardless of any FTA) takes an age, issues with local spares and servicing and of course they can buy locally more easily & cheaper, the same reasons we don't buy Holden cars.

There is zilch in the EU rules that stop us selling to China USA or anywhere else, i believe Belgium sells more to China than we do, Germany 4x as much.

Referendums are bad and should never be used but we got here by one and need another to get us out of this mire, one way or the other! any additional vote should be on the terms of the Brexit deal, Accept or Remain, after that (who ever wins) both sides need to stfu.

1tisILeClerc Sat 17-Nov-18 15:52:14

Bizarrely it takes as long for goods purchased in Leeds to get to me in rural France as it does 60 miles across England.

pointythings Sat 17-Nov-18 19:43:37

I think you have a nerve, using the tern 'Remainiacs' and asking for a respectful conversation. hmm

bellinisurge Sat 17-Nov-18 19:49:33

Anyone who calls people Remainiacs is asking for childish responses because it is a childish term. Let the grown ups deal with this , sweetie, because the toddlers shouldn't be in charge of important things.

Besom Sat 17-Nov-18 21:45:10

Scotland voted for devolution in the 70s by 52 to 48. The same as the Brexit vote margin. But it wasn't allowed because there was a caveat that 40% of those allowed to vote had to have agreed and this was not reached. Under the same circumstances Brexit would not be happening now. Seems sensible thing to do to me when you are dealing with major changes.

jm90914 Sun 18-Nov-18 06:11:36

For me, the use of the term “remainiac” illustrates perfectly why it’s a bad idea to rule by referendum. At least, here and now.

The country at large doesn’t seem to be capable of having a reasonable, adult, and respectful conversation on the subject based on facts.

It’s all about taking sides and then attacking the other side viciously. It’s a ridiculous way to behave, and sensible decisions aren’t made on this basis.

Regards the previous referendum; it was a common market at the time of the vote. You can’t throw out the result decades hence based on hindsight; that’s clearly ridiculous.

twofingerstoEverything Sun 18-Nov-18 08:07:39

Your thread title is pure goady fuckery.

surferjet Sun 18-Nov-18 08:16:45

Op: are you new to MN?
You must know by now that anything to do with joining the EU, being in the EU, staying chained to the EU, is good & proper and totally right.,
Anything else is completely wrong, based on lies & glorified opinion polls.

There is no discussion. Brexit is a religion now.

1tisILeClerc Sun 18-Nov-18 08:55:24

When you get married, is there a 'requirement' written into the marriage vows that say you will have 2 children, a boy and a girl?
NO, relationships change for many reasons.

Surfer is of course proving Twofinger's assertion about being 'goady'.
The UK is not 'chained' to the EU.

surferjet Sun 18-Nov-18 09:09:59

Exactly - what we signed up for in the 70’s is not what we have now.
Everything changes. We need to reassess and decide if the relationship with have now ( which is completely different from the relationship we had 40 years ago ) is what we want.

We decided it wasn’t.

Moussemoose Sun 18-Nov-18 09:12:38

And all the changes were negotiated by our governments. Debated and voted on in Parliament. No surprises all democratic.

merrymouse Sun 18-Nov-18 09:14:10

if referendums are bad why are remaniacs not saying we should leave after all we went in based on a 1975 flawed referendum said it was just a common market

Because:

1). We cannot turn back the clock to 1975

2). The decision to enter the EU would not have been flawed because there was a referendum.

It would only have been flawed if most MPs thought entering the EU was a bad idea and had no clue how to join the EU or what it would mean and the only reason the UK had entered the EU was because of a referendum.

Infact the U.K. joined the EU because of a vote by MPs not a referendum.

The referendum in 1975 was then about leaving or staying according to agreed terms.

Jason118 Sun 18-Nov-18 09:21:16

Once more surfer displays feelings not reasons. Feeling 'chained' to the EU is a feeling, not a fact. As we are finding out now, there is a mechanism for any country to leave, so we are currently 'joined' with the EU and are trying to 'unjoin' (and yes, I know that's probably not a word). Simple facts to understand really smilesmile

surferjet Sun 18-Nov-18 09:21:57

And all the changes were negotiated by our governments

Exactly. Negotiated by government.
The people were not involved or consulted.

We had a say in the 70’s - it was time to let the people have their say again.

Problem with letting governments decide things for us ; EU related : is they have their own agendas.
A politician this morning has called the EU ‘bullies’
Do you agree with him?
No, of course you don’t.
But he, & people like him, are in charge.

Jason118 Sun 18-Nov-18 09:23:29

Super, I didn't realise that our governments were imposed on us. I was under the ridiculous impression that we, the people, democratically elected them. Ah well, every day's a school daysmile

surferjet Sun 18-Nov-18 09:24:57

Jason118

Calling the EU ‘bullies’ is also a feeling.
But senior politicians say it regularly.

Are people only allowed to talk about facts?

Jason118 Sun 18-Nov-18 09:28:12

When the facts show that things will be shit, they trump any feelings of non-shitness I might have.

Jason118 Sun 18-Nov-18 09:29:29

People call others bullies when they don't get what they want - in the context of EU intransigence, why shouldn't they protect the club that we've decided to leave, wouldn't you also?

surferjet Sun 18-Nov-18 09:31:26

I wouldn’t bully someone just because they wanted to leave no.
That’s pretty disgusting behaviour isn’t it.

Moussemoose Sun 18-Nov-18 09:32:47

The people were not involved or consulted.

Ahhhhhhhgggghhhh

WE LIVE IN A REPRESENTATIVE DEMOCRACY! Yes they were in many, many general elections.

How many times do you have to read this before you understand. The government of the country you want to keep pure and untainted by the EU is a representative democracy. We shouldn't have referenda.

When am I allowed to call leavers stupid. Is there a point when something has been explained innumerable times when you can say it? You complain when posters say you don't understand and then you make comments which clear indicate you don't understand.

Leavers love and admire the U.K. constitution they want to keep it and then they argue against it.

It quite simply beggars belief.

surferjet Sun 18-Nov-18 09:36:07

Moussemoose

I don’t remember any manifesto I voted for detailing the direction that particular party was taking regarding the EU.
No party has fought an election on its EU agenda.
hmm

Jason118 Sun 18-Nov-18 09:36:15

But again you fail to grasp the point - the politician 'feels' he/she is being bullied when in fact the EU are just doing what's right by their members and their rules which will continue if/when we leave. It's feelings not reasons, as I said. That's why we are in this mess now - any rational person looking at the real facts before the referendum (or even the balance of probabilities of what was likely to happen) would not have voted to leave. It's feelings that drove the leave vote, it's one of the reasons debates on here are so one sided.

surferjet Sun 18-Nov-18 09:38:00

Apart from UKIP of course - which is why they were taking millions of votes off labour & the tories.

FACT for you.

Jason118 Sun 18-Nov-18 09:39:36

UKIP is a good point - if Cameron hadn't pandered to them, they would still be a pointless fringe party with no workable economic plans. Shame he was such a self serving arse.

merrymouse Sun 18-Nov-18 09:53:05

I don’t remember any manifesto I voted for detailing the direction that particular party was taking regarding the EU.

I'm very certain they all did - it's just that no major party had a policy of leaving the EU, because when it came down to it none of them had a majority of MPs who believed that there was a way that the UK could be better off outside the EU.

UKIP are quite good at promising unicorns to get votes, but have never had to govern - not even a parish council.

I can see that it was perfectly rational to believe that Cameron was giving people a choice - and that 'Project Fear' could be ignored because nobody had a clue how to execute one of the outcomes - but it turns out Cameron would.

merrymouse Sun 18-Nov-18 09:54:28

because nobody would have a referendum if they didn't have a clue how to execute one of the outcomes

1tisILeClerc Sun 18-Nov-18 10:02:03

{I wouldn’t bully someone just because they wanted to leave no. }
The EU is NOT bullying. The UK wants to leave, fine. All the EU are saying is that when the UK leaves these various matters need finalising, such as the money to be paid for projects that are ongoing. This being around £20 Billion if the UK leaves in March 2019, or £39 Billion if it has the transition period.
If you decide to leave the gym, where you were a member, it is NOT bullying by the management when they insist you cannot take the dumbells and rollmats home with you.
I would have liked to see halving of gas and electricity prices on government manifestos so I could vote for that. It might even be quite popular generally. It never happens though.

Moussemoose Sun 18-Nov-18 10:02:13

No party has fought an election on its EU agenda

In the U.K. system of politics - you know the one you treasure so much - elections aren't fought on single issues. However, at every election each party lays out its views on the EU. Every. Election. All of them.

We do in fact have one single issue party UKIP. So yes we do have a party that has fought elections on this single issue.

lalalonglegs Sun 18-Nov-18 11:17:23

Your OP is incorrect: the UK didn't go into the EEC based on a referendum, we joined in January 1973 after our Parliament decided that that was the best thing for the country. Two and a half years later, the decision to stay was ratified by a binding referendum which won 67% of the vote.

Peregrina Sun 18-Nov-18 14:49:57

I don’t remember any manifesto I voted for detailing the direction that particular party was taking regarding the EU.

Then cast your mind back to the 2015 Tory Manifesto where they devoted a whole paragraph to their commitment to the Single Market. Or are you going to say that this doesn't concern the EU?

bellinisurge Sun 18-Nov-18 16:16:30

Do you not remember or did you just not pay attention?

surferjet Sun 18-Nov-18 17:17:18

they devoted a whole paragraph to their commitment to the Single Market

A whole paragraph?
Well blow me down, how did I miss that?
Must have blinked I guess.

pointythings Sun 18-Nov-18 17:33:14

None so blind as those who will not see... Or read the manifesto.

bellinisurge Sun 18-Nov-18 17:36:01

If you didn't bother to even skim read a manifesto, or vote in the European elections then all this must come as a tremendous surprise to you. You need to take some responsibility instead of lashing out and sending us all over a cliff with No Deal.

GrammarTeacher Sun 18-Nov-18 17:48:56

Exactly. The lack of knowledge of the EU, how it works and what it does for us is shameful.

surferjet Sun 18-Nov-18 17:53:52

The tories fought the 2015 election on giving us a referendum.
That’s why they won.
That’s all that mattered to me.

GrammarTeacher Sun 18-Nov-18 17:56:50

Surfer - I don't think that IS why they won though. Otherwise UKIP would have been a lot more successful in previous years. Labour had been in power (before the coalition) for a long time. We tend to swing after a while. And the Lib Dem vote collapsed after the coalition. The result of that in many seats was a Liberal MP being replaced with a Tory. The referendum promise was just one of many issues.

surferjet Sun 18-Nov-18 17:59:35

Lack of knowledge?
This is what the tories said ahout the EU in their 2015 manifesto.

Our commitment to you
For too long, your voice has been ignored on Europe
We will:
give you a say over whether we should stay in or leave the EU, with an in-out referendum

commit to keeping the pound and staying out of the Eurozone
reform the workings of the EU, which is too big, too bossy and too bureaucratic
reclaim power from Brussels on your behalf and safeguard British interests
back businesses to create jobs in Britain by completing ambitious trade deals and reducing red tape

Weren’t singing the EU’s praises were they.

There’s education for you 😂

Jason118 Sun 18-Nov-18 18:01:46

And you fell for it, hook, line and sinker.

Peregrina Sun 18-Nov-18 18:07:23

There is quite a lot about the EU, pages 72-73, all rather muddled admittedly. But we say yes to the Single Market is one statement within a number of paragraphs. So technically no, it didn't get a whole paragraph to itself.

Lots of other choice gems too - a commitment to electrification of the railways - due to happen at my local station last year, but paused indefinitely, so now the local service is worse. Lots of empty promises for Scotland, Wales and N Ireland.

We could go on. As I have said, Manifestos aren't legally binding, they are something of a wish list. Once in Government all parties scrap some bits without a second thought and introduce other laws which weren't in the Manifesto.

Peregrina Sun 18-Nov-18 18:11:03

And since you did fall for it surferjet, (the one who was singing the praises of Theresa May not so very long ago), we now are likely to have no say in what happens in the EU. We had already opted out of the Eurozone and as for reform well, they will be able to get on without the UK whinging and whinging for special deals.

1tisILeClerc Sun 18-Nov-18 18:11:11

And the UK gets from the Tories:
'F%ck business'
Increased tariffs
Piss off possible trade partners so that they are lining up to refuse.
Continue to fund 'white Elephant' vanity projects while ignoring the poorer people in society.
Increase red tape (if it wants to trade with anybody).
Force massive infrastructure and personnel costs to facilitate new customs arrangements.
Withdraw all MEPs so there will be no representation in Europe.

'Vote arse' your grandkids may get over it and speak to you.

Peregrina Sun 18-Nov-18 18:37:25

The promise was to cut red tape of course. What wasn't obvious because it was in invisible ink, is that any reforms are only for the wealthy - they have to have their paths smoothed, the rest of us can go hang.

bellinisurge Sun 18-Nov-18 19:55:02

@surferjet , well done googling the 2015 Tory manifesto committing it to a referendum.
Here's a Tory PM after the previous referendum.

surferjet Sun 18-Nov-18 20:34:44

Have you had that pinned up next to your bed?

Moussemoose Sun 18-Nov-18 20:54:43

Sure as fuck You haven't.

mostdays Mon 19-Nov-18 17:10:16

"remaniacs"

Yes, clearly a post aiming to start respectful discussion hmm.

frumpety Tue 20-Nov-18 20:39:12

give you a say over whether we should stay in or leave the EU, with an in-out referendum Fair play they gave you that.

frumpety Tue 20-Nov-18 20:41:48

*commit to keeping the pound and staying out of the Eurozone
reform the workings of the EU, which is too big, too bossy and too bureaucratic
reclaim power from Brussels on your behalf and safeguard British interests
back businesses to create jobs in Britain by completing ambitious trade deals and reducing red tape*

^^ All of which sounds like they were actually expecting to remain in the EU ? Ooops ! Somebody only went and blew the bloody doors off grin

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