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Another issue the Government appears to have forgotten...

(39 Posts)
Sarahlou63 Mon 06-Aug-18 15:18:24

jasjas1973 Mon 06-Aug-18 15:33:36

Can't expect to have access to the criminal data bases of the EU and its bodies if we dont reach agreement to use and pay in for their up keep etc.

However, much like Airlines not flying, i believe (or rather hope!) they ll either be a deal or an extension to negotiating period.

Great shame really, the world is getting smaller just at a time we think we are better off alone.

Havanananana Mon 06-Aug-18 17:23:28

Access to EU criminal databases will be the least of the problems facing the police in March in the event of a No Deal Brexit.

In no particular order the worse-case scenario could include any or all of;

1) Control of the lorry-stacking system on the M26/M20 which could impact as far back as the M25, at which point the south of England grinds to a halt;

2) Control of queues of cars outside of petrol stations, shopping centres and supermarkets as consumers rush to stock up;

3) Control of crowds at the supermarkets as people fight over the last loaves of bread and the shops try to impose some sort of rationing. There were punch-ups over teddy bears last month; imagine what will happen if Tesco sells out of food by 10 o'clock.

4) Control of queues at the airports - current handling times for EU and UK citizens entering the UK are around 2 minutes per person, and this still results in hour-long queues at peak times. If handling times increase to 5-10 minutes per person, the queues will take hours to handle. [See also 1) above - Border Control staff are likely to be stuck in traffic trying to get to Heathrow/Stansted/Luton/Gatwick and Dover, as happens whenever the south east is hit by snow]

5) Protection of EU citizens and their property. Hunt and Fox have already stated that 'No Deal' will be down to the EU - it only takes a few idiots to transfer this to individuals and groups of EU citizens.

6) Control of people outside of banks and cashpoints before the government closes all banks for a week to prevent a run on the banks and the collapse of the banking system. (People will need cash for the black market)

7) Attempting to control the black market and associated activities - e.g. hijacking of food lorries, looting of stores, thefts of livestock etc.

8) and then there is Ireland...

Iamagreyhoundhearmeroar Mon 06-Aug-18 17:28:40

Why the fuck haven't we just called time on the whole bloody circus already?

Yaralie Mon 06-Aug-18 18:58:23

The first duty of a government is to protect its citizens and we are being endangered by this inept administration's failure to see the writing on the wall and to bin brexit now.

Yaralie Mon 06-Aug-18 19:02:19

Boris Johnson has said it is "not too late to save Brexit" as he accused Theresa May of "dithering" over the UK's strategy for leaving the EU. n his resignation speech.

If its not too late to save it then its not too late to knock it on the head.

Doubletrouble99 Thu 09-Aug-18 15:48:22

EU countries are heavily reliant on our intelligence in fighting cross country crime and terrorism. It is well known that the UK is one of the best at counter intelligence. So this really is a situation where there is no way the EU would cut off it's nose to spit it's face on this one.

dolorsit Thu 09-Aug-18 16:50:46

So this really is a situation where there is no way the EU would cut off it's nose to spit it's face on this one.

This is not the issue. The EU will have rules and regulations with the how system is run. It will be enforced through some sort of authorising body probably with the European Court of Justice as it's legal backstop.

The UK is leaving and as such we will cease to be bound by the laws which enable the system. The EU cannot legally allow us access if we are no longer bound by these regulations. It is possible that the laws and regulations can be rewritten and agreed to allow for the UK to continue participating.

But this will take time, that is what the transition period is for. If the UK leave without successfully negotiating a withdrawal deal there is no transition period. We become a third country that the EU both by it's own laws and international laws needs to treat like any other third country.

I've been a bit vague on the specifics as this issue is replicated across practically every single sector/industry. The EU is a rules based organisation it cannot simply change its rules on a whim. It takes time and agreement to make these changes.

This is why the whole "No deal is better than a bad deal" spiel is a load of rubbish. We're supposed to be negotiating an orderly withdrawal.

jasjas1973 Thu 09-Aug-18 18:47:43

EU countries are heavily reliant on our intelligence in fighting cross country crime and terrorism. It is well known that the UK is one of the best at counter intelligence. So this really is a situation where there is no way the EU would cut off it's nose to spit it's face on this one

Is this one of those "the UK has the best Intelligence/ army/football/healthcare/police/armed forces etc in the world?"

Why would the UK have insider knowledge of some squalid housing estate in Berlin, Paris or Brussels, when it has no fucking idea who is coming and going from Libya to the UK? we struggle to know what our home grown terrorists are doing.

The recent attacks in Europe have not stemmed from the UK, so why are we soooo important to them?

I'm not saying they d not miss us, but i do wonder how much? i think we need them more than they need us.

Doubletrouble99 Thu 09-Aug-18 22:17:08

The Counter Intelligence Group includes all 28 in the EU plus Norway and Switzerland. Britain is pivotal to it's operation in part because of our access to much of the US's intelligence and also because of the well developed intelligence organisations we have here. The only legislation needed to ensure that Britain continues in the CIG is to make sure we abide by the EU legal framework on privacy and data sharing - that is it, so hardly a difficult thing to sort out.
So there is no 'system' run by the EU dolorsit that has all these rules and regulations that you talk of. As for 'ours is better than yours' jasjas, well it is. Lots of EU countries don't have anything like the intelligence organisations that we have. Only France and Germany have anything like our MI5, MI6 and GCHQ.

MoggyP Thu 09-Aug-18 22:25:28

Basically, Eurospying is second best anyhow. And anything that matters militarily is NATO not EU.

International policing wouid be able to continue via letters rogotoire, Interpol etc, and one hopes CIG type structures, whilst legal underpinnings for any closer co-operation is sorted out. And yes, I think Europe, not just EU, will want to continue to work closely with UK because of our levels of expertise.

Remember, Britain is rich compared to most EU countries. They'll,want us in, because they can't afford for us to be out. Merkel has known this all along. It has dawned on Macron. Their meetings with Eurocrats are becoming much more interesting, and is the nexus to watch.

AndhowcouldIeverrefuse Fri 10-Aug-18 19:21:43

This website places the UK 15th in Europe and 11th in the EU in terms of wealth per capita. 11th out of 27 countries. So while this is technically true

Britain is rich compared to most EU countries

I'm not sure it is to the extent the pp meant it.

jasjas1973 Fri 10-Aug-18 19:57:20

What is the CIG ? google didnt bring up an immediate answer.

All i could find was a europol organisation

Any Eu set-up is bound by the ECJ something ruled out by May.

Doubletrouble99 Fri 10-Aug-18 20:25:49

CIG - Counter Intelligence Group. Not an EU 'set up' as far as I can see.

jasjas1973 Fri 10-Aug-18 20:49:43

Yep i googled that earlier but nothing comes up.

Have you a link?
It looks like that europol is the key agency here.

Be surprised if any grouping of 28 EU members plus Norway and the Swiss are not governed by ECJ.

Doubletrouble99 Fri 10-Aug-18 22:14:14

My apologies I should have said the Counter Terrorism Group.

Bearbehind Fri 10-Aug-18 22:24:28

EU countries are heavily reliant on our intelligence in fighting cross country crime and terrorism. It is well known that the UK is one of the best at counter intelligence. So this really is a situation where there is no way the EU would cut off it's nose to spit it's face on this one.

FGS - so we're still on 'they need us more than we need them'


jasjas1973 Sat 11-Aug-18 06:55:26

Thank you.
Looks like its an informal grouping under the auspices of the Dutch!

The Europol counter terrorism centre is the primary organisation here, what do we say to the victims of an attack in London, which may have been stopped had we remained in the EU ?

As myself and Bear have stated, its arrogant to suggest they need us more than we need them.

This is just another example of why Brexit needs to be halted, re-accessed and either aborted or put on a far longer exit process, say 10 to 15 years.

Doubletrouble99 Sat 11-Aug-18 13:48:09

Isn't it interesting how Jas and Bear resort to the use the words arrogant and pathetic to describe my assertions about how the EU intelligence services need us without actually knowing what they are talking about! They or especially Bear always do this in order to shut any Leaver down.
The whole point I was trying to make is that we have a highly sophisticated intelligence industry with very well imbedded links to the US no other European country has that.
We are part of what is known as the 'Five Eyes' group and our intelligence relationship with the US is absolutely invaluable to the rest of Europe. We have global surveillance programs operated jointly with the US's NSA and our GCHQ and programs like SIGINT are completely intertwined.
So try and get your facts straight before you start mocking others.
And you wonder why leavers don't want to engage with you!!

Bearbehind Sat 11-Aug-18 13:52:50

No double you are implying that the EU cannot possibly do without us so we will be able to get our own way because of this.

And that's simply not true.

Doubletrouble99 Sat 11-Aug-18 14:08:42

No Bear I am suggesting that we have more to offer than the OP suggested and that we are a force in the world of intelligence that is worth them continuing a good relationship with.

Bearbehind Sat 11-Aug-18 14:13:09

As I said; you are playing the 'they need us more than we need them card'

No one is disputing that we have things we can offer across a broad spectrum of areas, but that does not mean we can have exactly what we want in return.

The fact Leavers cannot comprehend that is why we are at a stalemate.

Doubletrouble99 Sat 11-Aug-18 14:39:13

I am not playing the 'they need us more than we need them card' at all. I am simply saying that we have lots of positives that the other EU countries might want to continue being friends with us for. But according to you and many other remainers I'm not allowed to mention these without being chastised and mocked.

Jason118 Sat 11-Aug-18 17:41:04

Thanks for the input Double - it's just a shame that we place all this at risk for something as pointless as Brexit.

jasjas1973 Sat 11-Aug-18 19:08:52

I used the word arrogant as in the UK is always banging on about how we are the best at this or that.... not that you are arrogant, apologises if it came across as such.
The EU will do just fine dealing with the USA, a political and trading block of 450m people is a powerful force.

Of course (as you say) it would be more preferable if we could maintain our close co-op with the EU's Intel services, however, to do so means we have to accept the rulings of the ECJ (as they do) which May has ruled out, i think this is an ill thought out red line.

If we are to leave, then a EFTA solution allows us to seek FTA's, still have SM access and have the advantages of criminal and terrorist Intel sharing, yet still be outside of the EU and of course was the option put forward by many in the Leave camp.

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