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Westministenders: One for the Women

(978 Posts)
RedToothBrush Thu 08-Mar-18 10:23:27

Just remember that women are more likely to be worried about Brexit.

Their women's and workers rights are more at risk from departure from the EU, the ECJ and potentially the EHCR.
They are more likely to be worried as EU citizens in the UK due to taking time to have and raise families.
They are more likely to have been badly affected by austerity and an economic downturn will hit them first.
If they are leavers they are more likely to have changed their minds.
They are less likely to be MPs so have less representation.
They are more likely to be feeling politically unrepresented by any party and unsure of who they will vote for at the next election.
They are more likely to get abuse for expressing a political opinion. Many report having been subjected to sexual harassment from political colleagues.
They are more likely to be the target of abuse on social media.
They are earn less than their political colleagues, they earn less than their media colleagues, they earn less than their business colleagues. They are less likely to be in powerful lobby groups.

Then there's #metoo

And to cap it off women's groups are finding it hard to get their voice heard, and are frequently being labelled as hysterical or bigoted for merely wanting to discuss things and be reassured that their fears are acknowledged. They are frequently dismissed as liars or over sensitive.

This is 2018.

It doesn't feel progressive. It doesn't look equal.

Brexit has more of an impact on women.

Dobby1sAFreeElf Thu 08-Mar-18 10:33:57

Thanks red

Happy international womens day.

MimpiDreams Thu 08-Mar-18 10:38:15

We will not get a good deal because the government are crap negotiators and the EU are determined to punish us.

We won't get a good deal because it doesn't exist. Being in the EU is the good deal. Everything else will be worse.

DGRossetti Thu 08-Mar-18 10:38:27

Yes Rossetti we do, but then we don't go about trying to change that decision before the next democratic vote I.e a general election.

Except we have had elections out of turn.

2017 ring a bell ?

I missed the bit where you took to the streets protesting about this terrible incursion on your democratic choice of 2015 being questioned.

Only I didn't really miss it, did I ? On the basis that it never happened.

So your prostration to a democratic choice seems somewhat ... flakey ?

Sostenueto Thu 08-Mar-18 10:38:59

Here and thanks red.

Sostenueto Thu 08-Mar-18 10:40:22

Rossetti you have your opinion, I have mine with hopefully mutual respect, that's a good start to democracy.

DGRossetti Thu 08-Mar-18 10:40:24

cameron stuffed the country by immediately accepting this as a vote for 100% out,

If Cameron had done what he promised - triggered A50 that afternoon, and stayed in power, we'd be making plans to rejoin as we speak. Which makes me wonder how sincere he was about staying in ?

lonelyplanetmum Thu 08-Mar-18 10:43:18

Once again, Red, thank you.

Peregrina Thu 08-Mar-18 10:50:36

Sorry I have to take issue with 'most voted to leave' but the old thread finished before I could reply. So 16 million people do not exist?

There was flooding in the south east plus with problems on Southern trains many failed to get home in time to vote. Postal votes didn't always get sent out in time, particularly to those oversees. David Cameron had promised in his 2015 manifesto to enfranchise those oversees voters who had been out of the country for more than 15 years but he never got round to it. Would it have made a difference? It's hard to say, but it most certainly wasn't the best conducted Referendum. It almost appears that the rules were made on the back of an envelope and certainly since then, any plans by the Government appear to be the same. This is before we start on the blatant lies of the various Leave campaigns.

Contrast this with our Parliamentary democracy, which we have had for hundreds of years and have gradually been refining the rules, and clarifying them where there are uncertainties. We recognise that people's opinions change and have elections at least every five years. So why on earth should a Referendum be considered to be different. Amber Rudd was asked on one of the politics programmes about how long the mandate for the Referendum lasted. She pretended not to understand the question, but I would suggest that if five years is considered acceptable for Parliament, that seems a reasonable time. The only time we have suspended elections in recent years was during the last War and even then, once VE day was declared the General Election followed pretty swiftly, before the fighting in Asia had ceased.

Now if the vote had been something like 75:25 to leave, I personally would still think it a mistake, but would have to admit that it was genuinely the will of the people. However the people can be wrong, and there is reason why Germany now bans Referenda, having suffered the consequences of them in the past.

Dobby1sAFreeElf Thu 08-Mar-18 10:50:37

Regardless, people like Cameron will probably come out of this relatively unscathed.

Sostenueto Thu 08-Mar-18 10:55:59

The people can be wrong peregrina I'm still trying to work out almost 50 years later how we got from joining the Common Market to being in the European Union, I voted against the common market.........

Globetrotter100 Thu 08-Mar-18 10:56:10


Peregrina Thu 08-Mar-18 10:57:57

Indeed. Cameron is already minting money. However, for the man who wanted to be PM because he thought he'd be good at it, to go down in history as one of the big failures probably hurts him more.

But his children won't be going without food or decent clothes as thousands of others will. His mother or brother in law won't be stuck on waiting lists for cancer treatment - they will buy their way out of them.

Sostenueto Thu 08-Mar-18 11:00:37

That is always the way peregrina, the haves and have nots and that will never alter brexit or not.

Peregrina Thu 08-Mar-18 11:02:09

I think you voted against staying in Sostenueto, we were already in the EEC. I don't in fact remember how I voted then, but I was working as a poll clerk at that Referendum, and I know that most people were for staying in.

Why did we get from the EEC to the EU? Because we have a Parliamentary democracy, and that is what the Government we elected decided. It is perfectly possible to have Govt, by Referenda, as Switzerland does, but I am pretty sure that their rules are more tightly drawn.

SusanWalker Thu 08-Mar-18 11:02:54

Although 52% voted to leave, 3 people essentially decided the manner of our leaving - Theresa May, Nick Timothy and the other one who's name I can't remember. Any attempt to debate the manner of our leaving was shut down by accusations of treachery. TM then failed to win a mandate for a hard brexit at the polls in the GE but disingenuously co opted labour's vote as an endorsement for leaving the single market. The hard brexiteers voices may be shouting the loudest but they are not the majority.

DGRossetti Thu 08-Mar-18 11:05:21

The hard brexiteers voices may be shouting the loudest but they are not the majority.

Things is they are all shouting for different things ... so none of them are really being heard.

What a shame.

EmilyAlice Thu 08-Mar-18 11:07:21

Well I have no problem remembering how we got from Common Market to EU Sostenuto. It was a clear political process, punctuated by treaties, general elections and MEP elections.

DGRossetti Thu 08-Mar-18 11:11:53

It was a clear political process, punctuated by treaties, general elections and MEP elections.

my memory too. But, as David Mitchell amusingly pointed out on the "Europe" themed "QI".

Typical. You pay no attention to what goes on in your country for 34 years, and look what happens !

Peregrina Thu 08-Mar-18 11:12:58

That is always the way peregrina, the haves and have nots and that will never alter brexit or not.

It's a good job that the people who designed the post war settlement didn't think like that, or we would never have had an NHS. I am glad that there were people who had a vision that something better could be created rather than shrugging their shoulders.

VivaKondo Thu 08-Mar-18 11:27:32

Here is a post from on the 3millions Facebook page.
The discussion is raising several issues with Brexit in such a nice way.
I do agree about the idea that most journalists weren’t born in the 1970 and therefore have no memory of how things were really like and what we really actually signed for (and no it want just an economic partnership)

Solidarity with Italy in Beaconsfield. 1:30 pm, 7 March. Tied a UK flag, an EU flag, and an Italy flag (in that order, left-to-right) to the railings outside Costa in Beaconsfield. In about half an hour, counted 6 positive reactions, 1 neutral, 0 negative.
1) "What are we celebrating?" asked a man of about fifty. "This is in support of European Union and Italy needs solidarity especially in the area of migration", I answered. "Oh, OK".
2) Two younger women who said they were from Italy asked what this is about. Gave the same answer as above, they said, "That's nice!"
^3) Dave, 66, said that England was "a mess" in the Seventies. He asked, "But we joined an Economic Community and then it became..."
"Ah, okay, a lot of people are asking that. That is a good question that deserves a good answer. Do you mind if I...?"^
It seemed that Dave relaxed a little.
"Yeah, okay".
"Well if you look at the original treaty then you see that it was about more than trade, from the start. It says it is about building a solidarity between the peoples of Europe, for their improvement, including their education... Yes it, it was called an Economic Community but it was about more than that from the beginning".
"You probably don't remember what it was like before EEC".
"No... A man who built Bluewater shopping centre said to me, one of our problems is most journalists are too young to remember the recession of the Seventies. What do you think of that?"
"Yeah.. But how come we have NHS on its knees and we're paying loads to build roads in Poland...?"
"That is another question that deserves a good answer. The EU budget is small compared to national budgets. It's only 1.1% of UK government spending and what it does, is it builds a market for British goods and services including the work of the City of London that contributes billions to the exchequer".
"I've no problem with free movement but why is the NHS struggling?"
"Because of years of Tory underfunding... When we speak of health care we should remember that health is a job for each country. EU membership isn't the cause of our problems. Our problems come from bad choices in Downing Street".
"Trade deals outside?"
"It's EU membership that makes Britain global. What the countries in EU do is give the job of making trade policy to the Commission. Like Japan, like Canada... And then when it's done it has to be agreed by the national parliaments".
"What about the euro... Portugal on its knees...?"
"That is another good question. I've only just started looking at the history of the euro currency.
The reason for having a single currency is because a basket of fluctuating currencies is a barrier to a single market and business certainty, and investment...
In the bad days before EEC if you took 1000 DeutSchmarks and went to 17 countries changing all your money in each one, you'd only have 500 dm left when you got home, without spending any money..."
[Source: "One Currency for One Europe: The road to the euro", EU Publications Office, Economic and Financial Affairs, European Commission].
"... It started with the Exchange Rate Mechanism that limited fluctuations between currencies".
"I remember the ERM".
"Who said, 'Today has been a very difficult day?' When Britain fell out of the ERM?"
Neither of us could remember who was Chancellor at the time. [The answer is Norman Lamont and it happened in 1992].
"So there are advantages to the euro but then it is true that you don't have the flexibility of setting your own interest rates, that could be an advantage but then there are costs... my text-book says it's too early to say whether the euro is a success or a failure, is it the most far-sighted political achievement or is it a destructive step too far?"
"You seem to be well educated... I've not been able to ask anyone about this before".
He turned to go.
"Thank you... you say you're over fifty? The European Commission is thinking about you and here's what they have to say. He took a copy of "What does the EU mean for us, the over 50s?" which came from Europe House at 32 Smith Square in London yesterday.
"Which flag is that?" asked the man of a couple of about sixty. "Italy".
"Good! Very good".
"What's this about?", asked Michael Nimier, Italian, who did a PhD in 1977. "In support of EU and Italy needs solidarity especially in the area of migration". He asked, "Would you like a coffee?"
Michael took a photo of me with flags. Leaving them flying outside still, went into Costa and met his wife. He talked about his study of politics around the world including India. Invited him to Pulse of Europe in High Wycombe, he is on Twitter with username @michaelnimier and has published some books. Hope he will send the pics.

Peregrina Thu 08-Mar-18 11:30:07

Here, for example, is someone who didn't just shrug her shoulders - she saw a problem and decided to do something. The latter part is what I am referring to.

TheElementsSong Thu 08-Mar-18 11:55:55

Thanks for the new thread RTB and happy International Women's Day!

DGRossetti Thu 08-Mar-18 11:59:38

Up to 1973 in Rock and Roll years. In case people think the GFA is worth pissing away, here's where we came from.

8 March 1973: The Provisional Irish Republican Army (IRA) conducted its first operation in England, planting four car bombs in London. Two of the car bombs were defused: a fertilizer bomb in a car outside the Post Office in Broadway and the BBC's armed forces radio studio in Dean Stanley Street. However, the other two exploded, one near the Old Bailey and the other at Ministry of Agriculture off Whitehall.[11] Ten members of the IRA unit, including Gerry Kelly, Dolours Price and Marian Price, were arrested at Heathrow Airport trying to leave the country.[12]

23 August 1973: A bomb was found in an abandoned bag in Baker Street station ticket hall. The bomb was defused. A week later another bomb was found by a member of staff at the same station and was also defused.

31 August: A bomb exploded in Old Quebec Street, Marble Arch damaging two hotels.[13]

8 September 1973: A bomb exploded in the ticket office at Victoria station injuring 4 people.[13]

10 September 1973: Two 2 to 3 pounds (0.9 to 1.4 kg) bombs at mainline stations injured 13 people and brought chaos to central London. The first explosion at King's Cross station – which injured five people – occurred without any warning at 1224 BST, seconds after a witness saw a youth throw a bag into a booking hall. Fifty minutes later a second blast rocked a snack bar at Euston station, injuring a further eight people.[14]

18 December 1973: A bomb exploded in Thorney Street, which leads off Horseferry Road. The bomb was planted in a car which was known to have been stolen in London, and was parked outside Horseferry House, a building occupied by the Home Office, and opposite Thames House, which is mainly occupied by the Department of Trade and Industry. Both these buildings, and others nearby, were extensively damaged. At least 40 people were injured.

24 December 1973: The Provisional IRA left two packages which exploded almost simultaneously in the late evening on Christmas Eve. One was in the doorway of the North Star public house, at the junction of College Crescent and Finchley Road, Swiss Cottage, which exploded injuring six people, and the other exploded on the upstairs verandah of the nearby Swiss Cottage Tavern where an unspecified number of people were injured.[15][16]

26 December 1973: A bomb was detonated in a telephone kiosk in the booking hall at Sloane Square station. Nobody was injured.

Peregrina Thu 08-Mar-18 12:05:35

But according to some Brexiteers peace was already happening in NI, and the GFA was only a treaty to wrap it up. It's hogwash of course. Why is it called the Good Friday Agreement, when this isn't its proper title? Because they were negotiating into the small hours on Good Friday. If it had all been done and dusted so easily they would have gone off for their holidays days earlier.

What I think can be said, is that people were sick of the violence and wanted it to end - so the will was there, but of itself that's not peace.

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