Sufficient progress on Irish Border

[user1471441738]

Donald Tusk said today although he welcomed the end if cake and eat it we'd still not made enough progress to move to a trade deal.

I'm wondering if we can ever get there. Guaranting citizens rights SHOULD be simple enough. The "divorce payment" is just about money.

However, what position would work on the border question?

For me, workable ideas are:

1: Cancel Brexit
2: United Ireland
3: EEA/single market membership
4: Single market for Northern Ireland but not Britain, hard border with Britain (border is the coast) and Northern Irish businesses wishing to trade must generally meet both EU and British standards.
5: Hard border with customs and passport checks between Northern Ireland and Eire.

Are there any others?

All 5 would surely massively anger lots of people

[Corcory]

Well you can't have N Ireland in the single market or Scotland will want that too!

[Bearbehind]

The fact is there is no viable solution.

That's why TM, DD et al are sticking their fingers in their ears and shouting la la la.

[GhostofFrankGrimes]

1: Cancel Brexit

The headbangers would never allow this.

2: United Ireland

Unlikely but as the dire consequences of Brexit unfold this may change

3: EEA/single market membership

Sensible but again the headbangers would never allow it.

4: Single market for Northern Ireland but not Britain, hard border with Britain (border is the coast) and Northern Irish businesses wishing to trade must generally meet both EU and British standards.

Scotland would complain. Unionists would never allow coastal border.

5: Hard border with customs and passport checks between Northern Ireland and Eire.

Undermines GFA.

[Bombardier25966]

None of the options would anger me, several would scare me. No one has the right to inflict 2, 4 or 5 on the people of NI and Ireland without their agreement, and the consequences of doing so do not bear thinking about. To do so would entirely usurp this "democracy" that those voting leave are so passionate about. I would be interested to hear their suggestions for a workable solution.

[Peregrina]

Is there a sixth option of remaining in the Customs Union? If so, would it be helpful, or not?

I would prefer 1, but assuming that we have to obey the will of the people, the majority of whom were English, as expressed 15 months ago and ignore any changing opinions, we can assume that this won't happen.

3 Satisfies the letter of the Referendum - the Norway option, but May has ruled it out. That pesky business of FoM. Did NI have a vast influx of people under FoM?

4 To my mind the worst option and effectively makes NI part of the RoI.

[FaithHopeCharityDesperation]

The only way it can be sorted is by discussing the future trade deal alongside it as it is the movement of goods that is the sticking point.

It is within the UK’s gift to say free movement of people & goods into & out of NI is fine, therefore no border reqd - it is the EU that are the sticking point in this issue.

If they agreed to discuss trade deal in parallel then the border issue could be resolved, but if you don’t know what the deal is with trade & movement of goods, then it is impossible to design a solution that works for the people of Ireland & NI wrt no physical border.

[imoverlyengaged]

Option 6
R o I also leaves E U

[Bearbehind]

It is within the UK’s gift to say free movement of people & goods into & out of NI is fine, therefore no border reqd - it is the EU that are the sticking point in this issue.

Is that honestly how you see it?

The fact is NI won't be part of the EU so cannot just carry on as before.

There has to be a border somewhere.

We need to acknowledge that there will be tariffs if we are leaving the Single Market.

In TMs speech on a Friday she said something like 'there should not be tariffs where there are none now and no one sensible thinks differently'

That is a measure of her arrogance. That's why we can't progress talks.

[FaithHopeCharityDesperation]

Which is why the future trade deal needs to be discussed now, in parallel.

NI/Ireland border cannot be resolved without discussing future trade deal as well.

The EU is refusing to do so, ergo this particular sticking point is entirely within the EU’s power to address.

[Bearbehind]

I disagree, and so does the EU.

We have to acknowledge that if we leave the Single Market we need a border of some description because there cannot be FOM on any of the 4 freedoms.

it is the UK who is leaving so it is us who need to offer a viable solution.

The fact is we are still working on the basis that everything will carry on as it did before, except the bits we don't like.

[FaithHopeCharityDesperation]

The U.K. as an independent country can say that they are happy with no borders, or free movement into U.K. for goods or people then they are free to do so.

It is up to the EU to decide what the EU wants - therefore it is the EU who has to say one way or another if it wants a border between Ireland & NI.

The sticking point wrt the island of Ireland is the movement of goods between Ireland & NI - that is why nothing can be sorted wrt borders unless trade is discussed in parallel.
The EU is refusing to do this.

If the EU agreed to discuss future trade, then solutions wrt the border would become apparent.

[Bearbehind]

The U.K. as an independent country can say that they are happy with no borders, or free movement into U.K. for goods or people then they are free to do so

Eh?

This whole fiasco is primarily driven by Leavers desire to stop EU migrants entering the country- why would we then say we are happy for free movement into the UK?

[FaithHopeCharityDesperation]

We have to acknowledge that if we leave the Single Market we need a border of some description because there cannot be FOM on any of the 4 freedoms.

No.

If we remain in the single market, we have to accept all four freedoms.

If we leave the single market, it means we do not have to have all four freedoms - however, we can still agree FoM on any or all of the freedoms if both sides are willing.

There absolutely can be FoM in any (or all) of the freedoms if outwith the single market - but only via a deal on each one.

[Bearbehind]

faith, sadly your thought process on this is the same as those in charge of Brexit.

When will you, and they, acknowledge the 4 freedoms are indivisible?

We cannot just pick the 3 we like.

[FaithHopeCharityDesperation]

This whole fiasco is primarily driven by Leavers desire to stop EU migrants entering the country- why would we then say we are happy for free movement into the UK?

You are missing the point.

As an independent country it will be our decision to make, not a decision made for us.

It is clear that NI is unique within the U.K.
It is entirely possible for an independent U.K. to say that wrt NI, free movement of people from EU (RoI) into U.K. (NI) is fine, whilst at the same time free movement of people in & out of the other parts of U.K. that don’t have a shared border with EU is not.

[Bearbehind]

As an independent country it will be our decision to make, not a decision made for us.

do you realise how petulant that sounds?

Are you saying we'd actually continue with FOM of people as we were before but that it would be ok because we'd decided to do that rather than the EU forcing us to?

[FaithHopeCharityDesperation]

faith, sadly your thought process on this is the same as those in charge of Brexit.

When will you, and they, acknowledge the 4 freedoms are indivisible?

We cannot just pick the 3 we like.

And sadly you are as intransigent as the EU.

I didn’t say we can ‘pick the three we like’, and it’s all totes ok.

The four freedoms are indivisible when you are a member of the single market.

We can be outside of the single market & the EU & still have a trade deal with the EU, if the EU is willing.

I said that as an independent country we can decide on whatever we want - we could easily say that we would accept free movement of any or all into the U.K.

It is up to the EU what they will accept.

The NI/Ireland border can only be resolved by discussing future trade deal in parallel.

[FaithHopeCharityDesperation]

do you realise how petulant that sounds?

Are you saying we'd actually continue with FOM of people as we were before but that it would be ok because we'd decided to do that rather than the EU forcing us to?

It may sound petulant to you, but it is simply a statement of fact.

Wrt FoM in the context of my posts, I am referring to NI as a unique part of U.K.

It would really help if you didn’t conflate different things tbh.

[Somerville]

The physical infrastructure of goods and people crossing the border aren't the only issues. In fact, they're almost secondary. The EU is intertwined with both parts of the island of Ireland, through the GFA. People of the north of Ireland are allowed to be identified as their choice of British, or Irish/EU, or both. So look again at the options and think again about which could be executed without undermining the identity of either group... doesn't leave much, huh?

Fervent Brexiteers are trying to keep the attention on trade in an attempt to back up their desire for parallel trade talks. And also because they either don't understand, or refuse to engage with, the identity politics which are actually more significant - and harder to resolve.

[Bearbehind]

I'm not conflating anything.

NI is part of the UK. If the UK is no longer in the EU there has to be a border somewhere, unless you are still working on the premise hat we carry on as before.

If it's not between northern and Southern Ireland then it would have to be between NI and the mainland.

The only reason Leavers are insisting we need to discuss trade in parallel is because they still think we are going to get away with having no tariffs so there will be no need for a border.

We need a solution that takes into account the fact we will not have the same terms we currently do.

[FaithHopeCharityDesperation]

People of the north of Ireland are allowed to be identified as their choice of British, or Irish/EU, or both. So look again at the options and think again about which could be executed without undermining the identity of either group... doesn't leave much, huh?

Why could this not continue?

People can carry on identifying as British or Irish or both as they are already.

U.K. can carry on supporting this, as can the EU.

There is no reason at all why this needs to be undermined or changed.

[TheABC]

This was one of the reason I voted remain. That, and I think the EU is due an overhaul and I would rather be part of that process than dragged along in the aftermath.

I am guessing most of NI would like to keep the status quo? In which case, can we not agree a specific open border with Ireland and FOM for all irish/british nationals? Not so sure how to sort the EU nationals, but I have a (slim) hope we can come to a sensible arrangement, plus as Brexit really bites home we are going to be a crap place to emigrate to. :-(

[Somerville]

Wrt FoM in the context of my posts, I am referring to NI as a unique part of U.K.


But the DUP have said clearly that they will never accept a deal where NI is treated differently to 'the rest of Britain' (sic). And without the DUP, the government don't have a majority, and we'll be having a general election.

[FaithHopeCharityDesperation]

I'm not conflating anything.

You are, and you always do.
NI is unique & must be treated as such.

[FaithHopeCharityDesperation]

But the DUP have said clearly that they will never accept a deal where NI is treated differently to 'the rest of Britain' (sic). And without the DUP, the government don't have a majority, and we'll be having a general election.

I’d like to think that if a deal was suggested in which NI may be treated ‘differently’ but not to its detriment or in any way inferior to the rest of U.K., that the DUP would not reject it.
Indeed, if it was a good deal & proposal that garnered approval across the parties, then the govt wouldn’t ‘need’ DUP at all.