Remainers - What do you want? When do you want it?(1000 Posts)
We had the referendum, we had the legal challenge, we had the Supreme Court ruling, Article 50 has been triggered. The United Kingdom will no longer be part of the European Union.
So my questions to Remainers are
What do you want? When do you want it?
Here's what I want..
I want the negotiations to go well. I want future relations with our neighbours to be cordial. I want a good deal for UK and the EU. I want us to walk away if their demands are unacceptable (and stem from vindictiveness and to deter other members from following our lead). I want the UK to be free to make good trade deals with any country it wants. I want the UK to lead in creating a new model of trade without excessive interference in each partner's social and political arena.
I want a referendum once the deal is known. The terms of A.50 are so wooly that it's not clear that exit after 2 years is automatic. The courts were asked if the UK definition was correct and they replied, words to the effect of "we are content with your findings without ruling ourselves". Donald Tusk has indicated he doesn't belive exit to be automatic so all in all this would have a legal basis. Of course I still want to remain as I think exit is a travesty. By and large all successful nations are members of larger trading blocks.
I guess I want a strong, working economy, a safe Nhs and social care system, I want to live in a warm, inclusive society, I want dh and I to keep our work in financial services, I want peace - in Ireland and Gibraltar in particular.
That sounds like you want to remain no matter what.
Sorry last comment was to engineersthumb..
Histinyhands - I want all of that too.
But you know it's not going to happen, right? Because we're intent on fucking ourselves up the arse.
Freedom of movement to continue.
Membership of EEA for economic stability - it makes economic and environmental sense for your largest trading partners to be those who are geographically closest.
Membership of Euratom to continue.
To remain under the jurisdiction of the ECJ.
Continued participation in joint scientific and medical research programmes.
I want Leavers to get real about what's actually possible within the bounds of reality. It's all very well to "want" something, but you have to have a realistic plan of how that's achievable.
I want Leavers to listen to the legitimate concerns of Remainers (e.g. On future of Ireland, on who will do eg care and farming jobs if we reduce immigration) without dismissing them. It's not sufficient to say "it'll be alright on the night". How and why?
I want Leavers to listen to the dire economic forecasts and opinions of the majority of those in the business world. Rolling out tax dodgers like James Dyson and Michael Caine to tell us they're "excited" about the brave new Brexit world and we should all get behind it, won't wash.
I want prominent Leavers to be honest about the driving force for this: a plan for wholesale deregulation which will hit the majority hard, whilst making it easier for the rich to make & keep money.
I want a referendum on the final deal. If it's a land of a glittering future as Leavers promise, then they've nothing to fear in asking people whether they like what they see once it's all become clear what post-Brexit Britain will look like.
I second G & T's statement.
I would like to see Fox, Davis and Johnson sacked, and if it's possible, someone sensible replacing them. I would like May to tell the UKIPers in her party to shut up now, they have got what they wanted, and there is a job of work to be done. And see that they are set to work doing it, instead of making mischief.
Ideally, I would like them to be voted out of Office at the next election, but that's up to the electorate.
Geographical proximity is less relevant in a global economy. The countries of northern and southern Europe may be geographically proximate but they are worlds apart when it comes to their economics. The UK could have had a trade deal done with Australia and Canada in a matter of months. It took years with the EU because each country and sometimes region (Wallonia) wants to interfere.
You can have free trade without interference in political and social realms. If the EU operated like ASEAN (an economic community, lean, bureaucracy light, not attempting to force political or social doctrines on each other, no single currency), I might have voted remain.
I'd like to be offered the chance to remain a European citizen somehow. I'd like to keep my European passport. I don't know how this would work at all, but I think it has been mooted by some bigwig in the EU, that UK individuals who wanted to could be able to have freedom to move and work in the EU.
Georgraphical proximity still matters when shipping goods around the world. It still costs more, and takes longer. Why single out Australia and Canada? Why not Mexico or North Africa?
Why would Australia be overly bothered about a trade deal with the UK when they have China, Japan etc? Or Canada when they have the USA? I think there's a definite overestimation there of what we've got to offer.
I get your concerns, I share some of them.
But do you want to Make Brexit Work
Or are hoping that there will be another hurdle of some sort (another referendum etc), that ultimately means we Remain No Matter What
I have capitalised the above because this the binary choice we are faced with now. MPs had to make this choice when they had to vote in parliament.
We all have to make it now. We each have to decide where we will put our time, energy and effort.
No, I don't want to make Brexit work. I want those who supported it to put their energies in to making it work - as we said on another thread You Brexit, you Fixit. No passing the buck.
There are plenty of other causes that I can spend energy on supporting, I am damned if I am going to do the work of sorting out a mess caused by the 'cat fight in the Conservative Party'.
I don't have to do anything to make this work. I will carry on living my life, working, bringing up my children.
I will carry on whether we leave or not, and whether Brexit works or is an arsefuck. 'Talking it down' or 'getting behind it' is just bollocks really. My views make no difference and the government have made that very clear.
So, I will use my democratic right to protest while I can. I will vote for not conservative not ukip in future elections and vote in all of them and carry on.
I won't say I'm going to support Brexit because I don't. You wouldn't be supporting joining Schengen and the Euro if it had been the same majority the other way however much you were told to 'suck it up losers' or 'pull together'.
optionalrationale it's nonsense to say that the success or otherwise of Brexit depends on the support of ordinary people at home. Unless you believe in the power of prayer in your Brexit religion?!
If we're stuck with Brexit, of course I'd rather it "worked" than the whole country suffer. However, I remain completely unconvinced there are any tangible net benefits to flow from Brexit. Unless and until it happens I shall do all I can to campaign against it.
Er, lots of us will be putting our time, energy and effort into just keeping our jobs and scrimping and saving for when the inevitable redundancies start.
I would like to know how the government will replace the jobs in financial services, manufacturing, pharmaceutical industry, scientific research that we are likely to lose due to Brexit. My career has already been destroyed by the loss of jobs in my chosen field during the credit crunch and I cannot afford to retrain if this happens again.
There is no need for it to be a binary choice. I would prefer to remain and would add a third choice - remain if we can't make it work.
It's a negotiation, all the "want" and "make brexit work" means nothing if the deal put forward by the other side isn't workable for us. I'd far rather we were grown ups and said "ok if we leave on those terms we are fucked" and stayed. If the deal isn't clearly in our best interests I want another referendum so we can see how many leavers are prepared to screw the country for their ideology.
Unfortunately though this forcing of a fake binary choice in the debate means I think we will leave regardless of whether it's a total fucking disaster, with no further say on the matter. A Tory driven leave agenda, just what everyone voted for I'm sure
Well said Bolshybookworm.
I'd be interested to know how my friend who has had to close her successful online sales business of ten years could have kept it going by "getting behind Brexit". The fallen £ meant her import costs were up 20% and her business - which employed 4 others - folded in December.
Peregrina and Unicorns - thanks. Would you agree that the choice is a binary one?
Make Brexit Work (MWB) or
Remain No Matter What (RNMW)
Or there other options?
You wouldn't be supporting joining Schengen and the Euro if it had been the same majority the other way however much you were told to 'suck it up losers' or 'pull together'.
Nor would you be saying that this was Democracy, what don't you understand?
On a day to day basis we get on with living our lives, bringing up families, going to work etc. Some of us are much more public spirited than others and do believe that there is such a thing as society, and unlike Theresa May, do our best to make our actions suit our words.
I want to go back in time and stop the bloody referendum from ever happening!
We all have to make it now. We each have to decide where we will put our time, energy and effort.
What does that even mean? Seriously, what exactly do you expect me to do , working in a non related job, raising four kids, in order to make Brexit work?
Remain If We Can't Make It work
Not sure if that's a particularly strong negotiating position now that the Article 50 clock has been started. We can no longer be part of the EU in 24 months.
So is it really a third option? Or is it really "Remain No Matter What".
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