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what does sovereignty mean?

(132 Posts)
ssd Sun 02-Apr-17 22:36:36

does it making the Uk making its own laws?

in other words the Conservative government making up the laws?

is that what leavers voted for?

Figmentofmyimagination Sun 02-Apr-17 22:51:30

It will mean the national government searching around for another explanation as to why they no longer have the power to positively change anything important any time soon.

IamWendy Mon 03-Apr-17 07:43:38

Yes. That's exactly what I voted for. If the way the conservatives do things isn't to my liking, I can vote another way next time, unlike with the Eu.

chicaguapa Mon 03-Apr-17 07:53:32

Yes, that's what the ones who were not focussed on immigration voted for. They think that there are EU laws which benefit other countries more than the UK and they want all laws to be the best thing for the UK. It will be interesting when governments have no scapegoat for their own disinclination to change the laws now that they won't be able to blame it on the EU even though they had a veto.

Sharknado Mon 03-Apr-17 07:59:25

hmmbecause this topic hasn't been done to death at all has it? confused

RortyCrankle Mon 03-Apr-17 10:13:46

IamWendy
Yes. That's exactly what I voted for. If the way the conservatives do things isn't to my liking, I can vote another way next time, unlike with the Eu.

100% agree.

chicaguapa - I would like to point out that Leavers are perfectly capable of speaking their own minds. If we want to talk bullshit, we have no need of someone else doing it for us. How arrogant to assume you know what we think.

ssd Mon 03-Apr-17 10:32:19

I get it now

lavenderandrose Mon 03-Apr-17 10:36:35

YY wendy

BeyondThePage Mon 03-Apr-17 15:31:53

but it is all a bit of a smokescreen - "taking back sovereignty" - we are members of many different organisations and signed up to so many international treaties - the EU is only a part of that.

the powers of a sovereign state are limited by the rules of international law, whether such rules originate in treaties or general principles of international law. For example: human rights are recognised as principles of international law; NATO is joined by treaty - agreeing to mutual defence in response to an attack by any external party.

Are we planning to leave all the other organisations too... or are we planning to simply regain a little-iddle-bit of our sovereignty?

MephistophelesApprentice Mon 03-Apr-17 15:39:57

NATO and Human rights legislation is demonstrably mutually beneficial. The EU appears less so.

Dannythechampion Mon 03-Apr-17 15:40:12

We never lost sovereignty, the white paper of the Brexit Bill said so

As pointed out by beyond the page, belonging to many international treaties means that we give up extremely small bits of sovereignty, any deal with the EU will also do so, joining the WTO will too.

It was a smokescreen, and an issue over played by leavers. After all, when British Judges had to use British Constitutional Law to make the government give the sovereign parliament a choice, they screamed traitor at everyone involved.

Sovereignty was a smokescreen for something else.

chicaguapa Mon 03-Apr-17 17:10:03

Rory WTAF? Since when does answering in the third person mean I'm answering for you?

Fwiw I was speaking for the people I know who voted leave and that's what they tell me they voted for. I haven't a clue what you voted for.

You are one of a few millions who voted leave, yet you feel I'm answering for you. ??

And you call me arrogant! hmm

lonelyplanetmum Tue 04-Apr-17 08:42:40

https://www.chathamhouse.org/sites/files/chathamhouse/publications/research/2016-05-09-britain-eu-sovereignty-myth-niblett.pdf

SapphireStrange Tue 04-Apr-17 14:45:08

We never lost sovereignty, the white paper of the Brexit Bill said so

I was about to say exactly that.

The arrogance, and the assumption of amnesia/idiocy among the electorate, of that passage in the white paper takes my breath away. In a time when my face is like shock most of the time about Brexit, that is one of the most shocking things.

Dannythechampion Tue 04-Apr-17 16:29:02

It beggars belief doesn't it?

Yet still pro brexit arguments are given for democracy and sovereignty, as long as it only means one person, one vote, once, after that shut up. Ah the irony.

BromptonOratory Tue 04-Apr-17 20:08:48

I think when people talk about sovereignty, they mean the government being able to decide the laws and policies of the UK.

Saying "We always had it, because it says so in the white paper" is missing the point (and I do find it odd when ardent remainers claim that something out forward by the government as part of the Brexit process must be an untarnished truth - didn't the very same government get taken to court because they were not doing things according to the correct legal & parliamentary process?)

This is a part of the white paper relating to sovereignty:

2.2 Leaving the EU will mean that our laws will be made in London, Edinburgh, Cardiff and Belfast, and will be based on the specific interests and values of the UK. In chapter 1 we set out how the Great Repeal Bill will ensure that our legislatures and courts will be the final decision makers in our country

Clearly this will be different to the situation we are in now.

BromptonOratory Tue 04-Apr-17 20:10:55

Unless you were being ironic in saying "the white paper says so"? Were you?

Dannythechampion Tue 04-Apr-17 22:08:39

Yet the white paper also contained the line: "The sovereignty of Parliament is a fundamental principle of the UK constitution. Whilst Parliament has remained sovereign throughout our membership of the EU, it has not always felt like that.”

So it appears that parliament never lost sovereignty, direct from the Brexit White paper.

Even the phrase used in the paper that you cite : "leaving the EU will mean that our laws will be made in London, Edinburgh, Cardiff and Belfast, and will be based on the specific interests and values of the UK." Is untrue, we will still be subject to courts, and laws made outside the UK, ECHR, International Courts, and most likely the ECJ for disputes between states.

Its further more ironic that when British Courts attempted to uphold the British Constitution so that Parliament had sovereignty, Brexiters objected vociferously.

Dannythechampion Tue 04-Apr-17 22:14:19

" they mean the government being able to decide the laws and policies of the UK. "

But it won't will it, even the WTO means that policies are constrained.

However, we digress into semantics, really when people argued for democracy and soveriegnty in the campaign ( and after) it was to make out that we were "dictated to" by another institution that we had no power over, and that those decisions were detrimental to the UK.

I find it hilarious that leavers attempt to dismiss the facts laid down White paper bringing what they want, because its convenient.#

Expediency, expediency, doesn't matter if its true.

Cailleach1 Tue 04-Apr-17 23:33:17

"Yes. That's exactly what I voted for. If the way the conservatives do things isn't to my liking, I can vote another way next time, unlike with the Eu."

That is not quite true, though, is it?

By voting for May and the Conservative into gov't, they are part of the decision making of the EU. Giving rise to the policies legislated for by the Commission, the development of the treaties. Each country also votes for the MEP's. So your vote actually determines the UK contribution to the tone of the EU. Has clout, otherwise there would be no Euro clearing in the UK.

Also, only 1 MP for the Conservative party in Scotland, yet Conservative gov't. Northern Ireland only 1 or 2 Conservatives stand and they never get voted in and Labour don't stand. So they never choose gov't in UK.

So, in short
- the UK voter votes for the pm who makes policies with other heads of gov't's,
- also all the mp's who become gov't ministers and who represent UK in relation to different departments which meet and also agree policies, e.g. defence etc.
- You also vote for the UK MEP representation.

If you don't like them, you can vote for different ones next time.

Cailleach1 Tue 04-Apr-17 23:34:36

Plus, you can vote another way next time and the Conservatives still get in. So things will be done still not to your liking.

Dannythechampion Tue 04-Apr-17 23:37:29

True.

You can also vote for MEPs who represent you at another level and make ammendments to bills suggested at council level, drawn up by the commission, and then sent to parliament.

caroldecker Wed 05-Apr-17 00:06:31

If Parliament was not sovereign, they could not invoke article 50. The delegated sovereignty in many areas to the EU, where they had a voice, and sometimes a veto, but not autonomy.
They also had little say in VAT, which provides 15% on the tax take and almost all purchase tax income.

Dannythechampion Wed 05-Apr-17 00:20:05

They have say in VAT, and can raise it and lower it at will, but products that have had VAT applied can't go below a floor after it has been levied, as part of the rules against Government aid.

Whilst part of the EU the UK didn't have VAT on fuel, once it was applied they can't then take it off, as agreed by all governments in the EU. Pretending its "enforced" by the EU is dishonest.

BromptonOratory Wed 05-Apr-17 07:56:42

Its further more ironic that when British Courts attempted to uphold the British Constitution so that Parliament had sovereignty, Brexiters objected vociferously

Some Brexiters, not all.

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