Sarcasm, condescension, mischaracterisation(201 Posts)
I have been spending time on the Leave EU facebook page to try to see the other person's point of view.
I am picking up that there is a really strong reaction to being condescended to, having your words used against you, rhetorical questions, etc.
So my question to those celebrating A50: when people debate with you, how does the style of the debate make you feel/act? Does it make you rethink you views or does it harden them?
Many don't debate though Smashed....they hurl insults, ignore answers, label leavers as thick (two post grads in my marriage, and we both voted leave, and we live, and dh works in Brussels, and has been seconded to the EU, and still works in a similar arena), and refuse to address the fact that leavers have legitimate concerns.
No remainer has advanced any positive or convincing argument as to why we should stay in. It's all negative comments about leavers and prophecies of doom, gloom and despondency. If we were as crap a country as some remainers like to make out, the EU would have booted us out years ago and we would be an international pariah like N Korea. They ignore what we have going for us, and that other countries are very successful outside the EU, as we can also be.
so as you see it you're being patronised/talked at,etc?
I think there is an urgent need to raise the quality of the debate. I know the Westminster system is adversarial but I don't think that works well online.....
certainly I would be interested to know more about your views/reasoning.
Scary That is simply not true. I have been on these threads for months highlighting the benefits of the EU for Science, Tech, the knowledge economy, the creative industries and the service industries (which alone are 70% of our economy), those parts of our economy that earn us a living by making us competitive in the global economy. I am well aware of what this country has going for it as I work in international markets, and I hope I have done a good job representing it and building economic and cultural links. All these sectors have been highlighting the benefits of EU membership and I have posted extensive links on the substantial harm that Brexit is already and will do to their ability to compete, I have been asking what plans / models leavers have for the economy to compensate and I have never had an answer. Leadsom did suggest South Korea, an economy half the size of the UKs which does more than 50% of its trade with China or ASEAN countries, and has a stultifying corrupt government which has prevented it from developing a modern market economy. Other countries have successful economies based on diverse models but a common theme is being part of actual or de facto regional trading blocks.
I am well aware of your arguments about the nature of Brussels, I take that on board and respect your experience. I do not think Brussels is perfect but I certainly do not think it justifies the substantial economic harm that leaving all the benefits of membership will cause.
<thinks about it all>
Do we really give each other the space to speak up that we intend to give?
Or do we get pushed into a back-and-forth exchange where we aren't learning much?
smash Whilst I do not doubt that there has been sarcasm, condescension and misinformation on both sides of the debate I do think that you risk falling into the trap of allowing the Leave side (and I do not include the regular Leave voters who debate on here in this) to define the debate away from reasoned and evidenced argument and towards emotion and denigrating the arguer not the argument. You see the technique being used by troll after troll that comes on here and they have a whole new lexicon of rhetoric with which to do it. "virtue signalling" "liberal elite" "metropolitan elite" etc. etc. This is not the bear pit of Westminster, or an alt right forum, it is a group of (mostly) mums having a debate about issues that affect their lives.
I find the eu debates a different world on mn. The assumption that all Leave voters are thick, stupid and "turkeys voting for Christmas" (yawn, how often has that been said on here) is not my experience in rl.
No name calling either way. Many of our friends, neighbours, relatives voted to leave from all walks of life, and many like us who are degree educated and higher tax payers. Many of the younger generation voted to leave too, so no feeling guilty about taking away the future for the next generation which is often mentioned on mn.
No one we know regrets their vote either, so not sure where all that is coming from either.
It's very annoying, but I ignore the name calling on mn in general, don't get involved in discussions because they only go one way - a piling in, but respect the leave voters who do post prolifically.
I do read the eu topic, such a huge event to happen, and understand the remain fears and worries, and empathise. That's not apparent the other way round, and I get that too. But I would vote the same way again and don't regret my vote, so as such, have to take criticism on the chin. It probably helps that many - but by no means all -of my nearest and dearest are leave voters because there's a certaint amount of solidarity about it for me.
Well I have certainly learnt a lot from these threads, from the arguments on both sides. I do not think my feelings about the EU have changed but they are massively more informed.
"I do read the eu topic, such a huge event to happen, and understand the remain fears and worries, and empathise. That's not apparent the other way round, and I get that too. But I would vote the same way again and don't regret my vote, so as such, have to take criticism on the chin. It probably helps that many - but by no means all -of my nearest and dearest are leave voters because there's a certaint amount of solidarity about it for me."
would you say your sense of solidarity increases the more criticism there is?
I can't really be bothered to debate if people don't make their case like they mean it. It does make me challenge my position, even as I challenge theirs. I think it is also healthy to understand the strength of feelings on both sides.
What really hardens my position is when I hear "I voted Remain but I completely get why others did not and accept that we are leaving BUT WHATABOUT blah blah blah blah blah."
OP, no I wouldn't say 'solidarity' as such increases. I wasn't 100% for leave so had concerns anyway. But I wanted to vote, I wasn't going to not vote, and that was the side I came down in when I voted. I'm not interested in defending my vote, being gleeful over remainers, or getting into arguments.
so you are irritated when there are caveats?
"What really hardens my position is when I hear "I voted Remain but I completely get why others did not and accept that we are leaving BUT WHATABOUT blah blah blah blah blah."
Rondo, Your post is a case in point. Those who voted leave will not have all the answers to all the questions about every sector of the economy, and yet, we are expected to. No remainer has as yet been able to tell me where we would be 10 years down the line with all the changes coming down the track with the EU, and why some remainers wanted people to think that we were voting for the status quo, when that is changing wef 01 April this year.
OK so some people enjoy a robust debate Westminster style.
I think many people don't though and I'm one of them.
I feel like there is no constructive space (here or elsewhere) where we can talk to each other and really listen.
Is there any chance of creating one?
So for instance, I've got no idea what scary means about 1st April changes to the EU and would like to find out.
but I find staying on most of the threads (except for the quiet thread) exhausting so I don't find out.
<looks at scary in interested manner, makes quiet plea for a bit of space to listen>
Scary You said No remainer has advanced any positive or convincing argument as to why we should stay in. It's all negative comments about leavers and prophecies of doom, gloom and despondency. If we were as crap a country as some remainers like to make out, the EU would have booted us out years ago and we would be an international pariah like N Korea. They ignore what we have going for us, and that other countries are very successful outside the EU, as we can also be.
I responded with
a. some benefits I and others have been spouting on about for 18 months
b. some effects that are already being felt, sorry if that is gloom and despondency but it is happening now (and to my family since between banking, science, the creative industries and international trade we are a full house)
c. pointing out that I have certainly never thought we were a crap country
d. that the economies of other countries are diverse, but also in the main linked into regional trade networks, you cannot use them as models for the success of the post Brexit UK economy, especially when nobody has a plan or even any ideas.
I wasn't challenging you to * have all the answers to all the questions about every sector of the economy* nor did I expect to but I was countering your arguments, and pointing out that it isn't just you not coming up with a plan for the future of the economy, nobody is, not even the people whose responsibility it is . This is exactly what I mean about closing down debate by using straw horses/ claiming victimhood / rubbishing the person trying to debate with you instead of actually addressing the argument.
Oh and e. offering respect for your experience and arguments
but got none back
smashed fair point about space to listen, we actually did have a constructive things in common thread, with leavers and remainers www.mumsnet.com/Talk/eu_referendum_2016_/2785647-Things-in-Common
It petered out though, and normal tribal behaviour resumed.....
One argument for Remain is that Leaving is a major change. Change is almost invariably a) costly b) requires a longish transition period.
Committing to a) means that money is not available for other things, and we have already been told to whistle for the £350 million for the NHS. b) No long transition period is on the table.
Other arguments - to trade with the EU will we need to comply with their laws, but have lost the chance to influence those laws.
Caveats don't irritate. Disingenuous faux acceptance does.
Just read a blog by an academic who voted leave: Martin in the margins. Wish I'd learned to link. I am not very academic..But I identified with much of it.
I am in Scotland and would like the Union to endure but I accept that many people want Independence. If it comes I will not be berating them for it.
It petered out though, and normal tribal behaviour resumed.....
Many of the younger generation voted to leave too, so no feeling guilty about taking away the future for the next generation which is often mentioned on mn.
As an oldie who voted Remain (at the last minute) I feel no guilt. Most of the younger members of our family voted Leave – some friends voted the same and others voted Remain.
I made sure I knew a lot about the EU once the Referendum was announced, voted No 1975 and expected to vote No again. Then I realised the Political Leavers didn't appear to know what they were talking about and though I'd have wanted to be rid of David Cameron (I suppose that's one blessing) I voted Remain.
I'm trying to keep an open mind because no-one really knows what will happen, but can't help raising an eyebrow sometimes. For years I thought every law in this country had been passed by our Parliament, but now I'm told we're bringing in a lot of EU laws. Seriously, I don't understand that.
As we weren't part of Schengen I thought we did have control of our borders, but now David Davis has said immigration will increase.
I don't think it will be a total disaster but neither do I think it will be a rip roaring success. There are some things we're just not good at it, like keeping our assets in the UK. We've just sold the South West Train franchise to China. As a country we are against State Ownership, apparently, but we're OK with State Ownership by other countries. Deutsch Bahn are quite open about the fact that they use the profits from our rail system to subsidise their own in Germany. Weird.
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