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Westminstenders: And so it begins

(992 Posts)
RedToothBrush Thu 30-Mar-17 08:30:13

Promises made that can not be kept.

We have already fallen at the first stumbling block: the desire for parallel talks on exit and future relationship that May wanted has been rejected. Not that this is a surprise seeing as we were told this.

This isn't two years of negotiations for a good deal. Forget any suggestions that it is. It's two years of damage limitation and domestic pr.

For both the UK and EU.

I do believe that May's attitude - which seemed to be more friendly in her speech and letter yesterday - has burnt all our bridges.

This talk of the world needing the EU's 'liberal democracy' isn't aimed at the EU though. Her use of the words that produced uproar in the HoC yesterday was deliberate. Why use it? It was always going to produce a reaction.

When May says she will have a consensus at home to achieve this goal one of two things must happen: to prove just how much we need the EU to make a political reversal possible at the expense of her head or to vilify the EU to a point that Remainers suddenly change their mind.

To get a good deal for the UK she can not satisfy her hard line Brexiteers. It is impossible purely because to do otherwise is like breaking the laws of physics. Trade is done mostly with who you are closest too. This is the inescapable truth. We are leaving the EU but not Europe as keeps being pointed out.

If we want to trade we have to accept EU regulations. If we do not, we do not trade. Rules we can now no longer influence by must obey.

We can not reduce immigration. We have had control of non-Eu immigration and that is not going down due to skills shortages. To combat this schools are getting less money.

In terms of sovereignty and British parliament we just gave that away. The 'Great' Repeal Act is a power grab by the executive. It seems to give the powers of the monarch to Mrs May and take them away from parliamentary scrutiny. At the same time we are forced to become beholden to Trump's America. A man who screws people for a living and has not a shred of honour.

Using security as our bargaining chip misses the obvious. If we do not cooperate we endanger Brits abroad and ourselves domestically. Are we really prepared to stop?

The opportunities of Brexit Britain are bleak. This will be normalised.

Good luck folks. We are gonna need it.

GreenPeppers Thu 30-Mar-17 08:57:41

Thanks again for the thread Red.

An outsider POV, from the NewYork Times
www.nytimes.com/2017/03/30/business/brexit-britain-eu-economy-banks.html?_r=0

Fwiw, I think BigChoc was right earlier on.
It's not that TM doesn't know what she is doing. It's the fact that the way she is handling things is the only way to be able to appease the far right in the Conservative party.
My own conclusion there is that there has actually been a strong rise in far right (extremist?) views in the Tories but we were never quite aware about it. The internal politics of each party are nicely tucked away from the public eye. Now that the % of far right people/politicians in the party is higher, it's harder the get rid of them and harder to keep them quiet. It's also the reason why DC could not just postpone and postpone the referendum.
I don't think this is representative of what is happening in the population though. It seems to me more like the conclusion of a constant push from the tabloids and the far right, supported by a few people with lots of money and a control over the press.

SemiPermanent Thu 30-Mar-17 09:07:39

.

MangoSplit Thu 30-Mar-17 09:10:55

Place marking

RufusTheRenegadeReindeer Thu 30-Mar-17 09:11:32

Thanks red

LurkingHusband Thu 30-Mar-17 09:12:10

.

squishysquirmy Thu 30-Mar-17 09:14:43

.

Imjustapoorboy Thu 30-Mar-17 09:17:52

I don't know there have always been far right Tories. And many have held positions of power. Think Tebbit (shudder)

May wants to hold power for its own sake. Not for the good of the country. Likewise with the 3 arse wipes. This I think is a difference. Tebbit et al had a belief in duty. This shambles only believe in themselves

PoundlandUK Thu 30-Mar-17 09:21:16

star

Peregrina Thu 30-Mar-17 09:32:53

It's not that TM doesn't know what she is doing. It's the fact that the way she is handling things is the only way to be able to appease the far right in the Conservative party.

Yes, virtually her sole aim. Things never go well for appeasers.

My own conclusion there is that there has actually been a strong rise in far right (extremist?) views in the Tories but we were never quite aware about it. .......I don't think this is representative of what is happening in the population though.

I agree, and I think the response by ordinary people to last week's atrocity shows how fundamentally decent most people are.

(Back to the other thread for now, to see it fill up.)

ItsAllGoingToBeFine Thu 30-Mar-17 09:33:55

the desire for parallel talks on exit and future relationship that May wanted has been rejected. Not that this is a surprise seeing as we were told this.

I was amazed to see this as an important breaking news item. We had already been told this! Has our government simply been going "lalalallalalala" with their fingers in their ears?

LurkingHusband Thu 30-Mar-17 09:54:43

Has our government simply been going "lalalallalalala" with their fingers in their ears?

Yup. That's them.

Imjustapoorboy Thu 30-Mar-17 09:57:06

Between Corbyn and May they really are determined to break up the union aren't they www.google.co.uk/amp/www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/corbyn-northern-ireland-should-have-a-reunification-referendum-if-the-assembly-wants-one-a7657041.html%3Famp

Whilst I know neither the Tories or Labour get votes from Scotland or NI it's shocking that neither care for the UK

PoundlandUK Thu 30-Mar-17 09:59:20

Has our government simply been going "lalalallalalala" with their fingers in their ears?

I think this is partly true. More importantly, I think this is what the government things the people who they are trying to appease have been doing...and on that point they would be absolutely correct.

Let's face it, the con has been pretty successful so far, and I'm talking about years of blaming the EU for stuff which has been 100% under the control of the UK government. Astonishingly successful brainwashing and I see it regurgitated to this day. Misinformation and lies surrounding the Leave campaign? Lapped up and even when debunked by the Leave campaign members it's still being coughed up as fact.

It reminds me of a very old male friend who fell for an Internet dating scam with a gold-digger about 30 years his junior. It was was much easier for him to continue handing over the money "in good faith" than to face the humiliation of admitting to himself that he had been blinded with lies for the sake of his vanity and sense of sexual/romantic inadequacy. He did work out and confront the truth in the end, because lies are rarely indefinitely sustainable, but was much poorer and sadder for it.

So in the government's defence, it's hard for me to rationalise why they would consider that honesty and logic is necessary to proceed without getting egg on their faces in the eyes of the British public as a collective. Because recent history suggests otherwise and recent polls back that up.

It's why I'm going to be thoroughly enjoying the transparency of negotiations from the side of the EU...and if the UK government has nothing to hide then they have nothing to fear smile

HashiAsLarry Thu 30-Mar-17 10:11:28

Thanks rtb

LurkingHusband Thu 30-Mar-17 10:26:52

Meanwhile, here's a story from our glorious British past.

What a nice flag ...

LurkingHusband Thu 30-Mar-17 10:30:47

p.s. anyone catch the absolutely-nailed-it Daily Mash story

EU LEADERS are puzzled about why Britain wrote them a letter in the age of electronic communication.

EU president Jean-Claude Juncker said: “These days we tend to go in more for emails, it’s a lot less hassle.

“I mean it’s totally up to you if you want to dick about with writing actual letters then getting some guy with a suitcase to hand-deliver them, but personally – and I believe most of the world is with me on this – I think it’s a pain in the arse.

“You could communicate by telegram if you like, or write in goat’s blood on a tiny piece of parchment and then attach it to a dove’s leg.

“That would be exactly that sort of perversely antiquated thing you people seem to enjoy.”

Cretancuisine Thu 30-Mar-17 10:41:49

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-39439993

Lord Heseltine: Brexit Britain relinquishes power.

taytopotato Thu 30-Mar-17 10:46:12

Lloyds of London or is it Lloyds of Brussels now

[[https://www.ft.com/content/9945c0ee-1483-11e7-80f4-13e067d5072c Lloyds of London picks Brussels For its European base]

LurkingHusband Thu 30-Mar-17 10:46:53

Growing up under Thatcher, Heseltine is about the only Tory I felt was pointing in the right direction. And maybe Lord Carrington. Both resigning on principle despite the cost to their own careers.

It should make their views more valid than anything the current crop of self-seeking politicians might say.

BigChocFrenzy Thu 30-Mar-17 11:39:15

Thanks, red

howabout Thu 30-Mar-17 11:47:49

I grew up under MT et al. Heseltine was prioritising the EU and himself over UK Government and business even then. That is why the Westland affair happened. Cannot abide the man.

woman12345 Thu 30-Mar-17 12:21:34

stillshocked

Imjustapoorboy Thu 30-Mar-17 13:28:23

Patton on Today 'Some of the RW of the Conservative party have lost the plot'

The thing is that moderates in all parties are just that moderate. Both the Tory R/W and Labour L/W have pushed the envelop too far now

However, I do wonder how the moderates will take back control of both parties.

howabout Thu 30-Mar-17 13:33:33

I have friends from Hong Kong. Not really inclined to take lectures on protecting rights and sovereignty from Patten.

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