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Westministenders: Boris is reminded of the Munich Post.

(1000 Posts)
RedToothBrush Tue 07-Feb-17 11:36:17

The Munich Post was the 1930s German Newspaper that refused to normalise. It refused to bow to the threats and intimidation of the Nazi State. It was to eventually closed but it defended the truth to the bitter end.

With Trump’s systematic attacks on the Press and Judiciary we should take heed. We must stand up for our journalists who seek to serve the public rather than serve their masters and only chase profit.

We must ask why, right wing extremists when they make attacks are too frequently labelled simply as lone wolfs who exist within a vacuum, when it is widely accepted by intelligence services that Muslim extremists are often the products of online radicalisation and any element of mental history is totally irrelevant because of their religion.

The PM hiring advertising agents to try and deal with a problem of increasing racial tensions rather than talking to the newspaper executives who she has close relationships with, is a deliberate missing of the point.

It is an abdication of responsibility and is wilfully ignorant.

It is about time we addressed the hole of hatred in our society that exists properly. From all angles and approaches, from all parts of our society. The blind spot in failing to acknowledge how the media’s role in this only serves to fuel the divisions. It has become normalised. Powerful lobbying groups like the Freedom Association continue to deny that populism has contributed to a rise in hate crime pointing to a dislike for how incidents are recorded. Their influence in Westminster is too apparent.

Some of the comments made in the houses of commons and to the media by Tory MPs have been worryingly close to comments made by Trump and his associates. They have been worryingly close to online trolls. They have been laced with too many ‘alternative facts’ and full of exaggerated language about immigrants. Language, its use and context are important and powerful.

These are elected officials with a social responsibility. Instead they are continue to stir things. We no longer need Farage and worry about UKIP. We have a whole bunch of them in the HoC and a quick trawl though Hansard reveals them in all their glory. To a privileged white man they are Trump apologists. During the debate over Trump’s visit to the UK, one even thought it appropriate to woof at a female MP. In 2017.

We might be very British in the way our alternative facts are being expressed but the same threats are very much present within British politics as they are currently in US politics. We might not have anyone quite as brash and brazen as Trump (with the possible exception of Farage), but this makes it more not less dangerous. People like IDS and Johnson add respectably to the thin veneer of hatred and xenophobia.

A50 is likely to pass the commons, without amendment as things stand. (I think we need to watch the Lords with interest) We are perhaps likely to enter a period where things might quieten down in the UK for a time. We must be vigilant and not accept normalisation and continue to make noise about how we feel about the future of this country or we will be dominated by the agenda of these individuals who have little respect for the interests of anyone who is not part of their boys club.

Theresa May may not be one of them, but like Trump she craves their approval and does share many of their values. She is happy to pander to them, and them to her as she makes their toxicity somehow more acceptable.

What women do next is crucial. Do we want to accept this vision of the future? Now is not the time to fall silence and accept that things are equal now. We know the reality. And it affects all of us, regardless of how we voted on 23rd June.

AllTheLight Tue 07-Feb-17 11:41:58

Place marking

Motheroffourdragons Tue 07-Feb-17 11:45:19

Thank you, Red. Great summary as usual.

I don't know if anyone has seen this or it has been posted, but it made me laugh anyway.

The NL version of 'America First'

It is in English after the first bit.

MockTurtleSoup Tue 07-Feb-17 11:50:57

Morning Red brew. I wonder if the HOL's will throw a spanner in the works.

woman12345 Tue 07-Feb-17 12:04:15

What women do next is crucial.
thanks RTB

HashiAsLarry Tue 07-Feb-17 12:15:35

Thanks red
What women do next is indeed crucial.

howabout Tue 07-Feb-17 12:18:37

Update from previous thread. Don't know who Faisal was talking to, plenty of on the record Bercow criticism out there.

Mistigri Tue 07-Feb-17 12:20:38

I'm not able to keep up with these threads any more due to work, but just popping in to see if anyone has posted this:

Good discussion of Brexit implications for Ireland (N and S) especially the food supply chain issues. Massive headaches to come on both sides of the border.

unicornsIlovethem Tue 07-Feb-17 12:23:49

Thank you Red.

howabout Tue 07-Feb-17 12:24:59

Potted Nero and Marie Antoinette for anyone who wants to go beyond fiddling while Rome burned (mismanagement of economy and migrant crisis and rise of nationalism and Islamophobia) or letting them eat cake (Greece and Italy).

RedToothBrush Tue 07-Feb-17 12:25:25

I came across this twitter thread last night, and was in two minds about posting it.

Proceed with caution:

It is a video of Trump talking about terrorism. @leahmcelrath compares it with the audio recording of the suicide of cult leader Jim Jones and his 900 followers in 1978.

It is disturbing. Trump speaks in the same tones and intonation. Its rhythmic and slightly hypnotic at times. He talks about violence and as if he and his followers are under siege in the same way.

As I say, proceed with caution, but I do think the parallels are so apparent here that it was worth posting despite my reservations in doing so.

Its possibly the most chilling comments on Trump I've seen.

RedToothBrush Tue 07-Feb-17 12:28:40
Torture Works

A piece on the relationship between the truth and torture.

SapphireStrange Tue 07-Feb-17 12:31:14


Peregrina Tue 07-Feb-17 12:35:52

I suspect that when it comes down to it, the HoL won't throw a spanner in the works because they know that either they would be abolished, or that the Tories would pack it out with placemen.

The PM hiring advertising agents to try and deal with a problem of increasing racial tensions rather than talking to the newspaper executives who she has close relationships with, is a deliberate missing of the point.
It is an abdication of responsibility and is wilfully ignorant.

Quite. She started it with her Home Office behaviour. She compounded it with the deplorable Tory Party Conference last October.

When the Mail attacked the Judges she wittered on about a Free Press, but failed to condemn the Mail for overstepping the mark.

When Trump declared his anti-immigrant ban she had to have an answer dragged out of her. One which was straight out of the appeasers text book.

She makes much of being a Vicar's daughter and her Christianity. She would do well to remember the German Christians.
(This is not a criticism of Christianity by me - I am a Church member myself, but one which is very active promoting tolerance in the community.)

RedToothBrush Tue 07-Feb-17 12:48:40
Ordinary Americans carried out inhumane acts for Trump

The article references the Milgram Experiment:

It ultimately splits those who participated into three groups:
Obeyed but justified themselves
Some obedient participants gave up responsibility for their actions, blaming the experimenter. If anything had happened to the learner, they reasoned, it would have been the experimenter's fault. Others had transferred the blame to the learner: "He was so stupid and stubborn he deserved to be shocked."

Obeyed but blamed themselves.
Others felt badly about what they had done and were quite harsh on themselves. Members of this group would, perhaps, be more likely to challenge authority if confronted with a similar situation in the future.

Finally, rebellious subjects questioned the authority of the experimenter and argued there was a greater ethical imperative calling for the protection of the learner over the needs of the experimenter. Some of these individuals felt they were accountable to a higher authority.

I am wary of any notions that encourage the population to do things and support something without question. Brexit is a good example of this.

Anyway that's enough of the really dark stuff for a Tuesday lunchtime.

RedToothBrush Tue 07-Feb-17 12:56:22

Kevin Schofield ‏*@PolhomeEditor*
20 people contributed to the debate on the Article 50 vote in this morning's Shadow Cabinet, I'm told. Diane Abbott wasn't one of them.
Diane Abbott even kept quiet when Emily Thornberry told Shadow Cabinet "some around the table had not helped the Labour position" last week.

Steven Thomas ‏@TheStevenThomas
*@PolhomeEditor* Diane hasn't kept quiet for about 35 years. It must be serious.

Corbyn is facing another rebellion this week. He is said to be proposing a three line whip on the vote to allow a50 to proceed to its third reading even if Labour secure no amendments.

Anyone got a suggestion for a good excuse poor Diane can use this time?

HashiAsLarry Tue 07-Feb-17 12:57:49

Is 'completely unable to find any guts' a decent excuse?

woman12345 Tue 07-Feb-17 13:22:28
Just in time for French elections, on this I don't want to do a sweepstake, it's too sinister.

RedAndYellowStripe Tue 07-Feb-17 13:30:18


woman12345 Tue 07-Feb-17 13:48:58

New divorce laws coming in to curb maintenance payments for ex wives.
Post Mrs Married Lady's arrogant and deliberate rudeness yesterday, looks like we'll soon be wearing bonnets and praying for humility.
Fortunately, no divorced women were available to discuss its merits in the above debate.
I smell changes afoot to divorce, already hardly a walk in the park for either parties, but with the absence of legal aid, the new provision for pre nuptial agreements becoming legally binding, and with her comments here:
She said the situation says to young women: “Never mind about A-Levels, or a degree or taking the Bar course – come out and find a footballer.”

woman12345 Tue 07-Feb-17 13:55:56

The 'she' in above is Lady Deech who sponsored the bill may have the best of intentions as acknowledged in this good blog.

When women really were entitled to equal pay, pension rights, work conditions divorce was a realistic option on equal terms for both parties, if they both had the income to do it.

Things have certainly changed, in terms of women's work, pension rights etc, and if the law does not acknowledge that, again I suspect, women will suffer.

SemiPermanent Tue 07-Feb-17 14:07:44


whatwouldrondo Tue 07-Feb-17 14:12:22

Thank you Red

I do think we need to acknowledge though where this is coming from deep down in the human psyche. I absolutely see that there has been unfairness in this country in terms of the north/ south divide, effects of austerity etc. etc. but the rise of the right is not the politics of inequality, it is the politics of hate. A constituency has formed around a sense of entitlement which is largely but not entirely white and male. This right wing politicians in the Commons that have come to the fore are so convinced of their entitlement and superiority that they can come out with overtly racist and sexist comments without them being anchored in any of what until a few months ago would be regarded as "British values" and without any sense of shame or even self awareness. They simply think they are winning again against those who sought to undermine their illusions of superiority with notions of equality and fairness. I think is what we are seeing more generally too. All the petty nasty resentments of those from other cultures and genders are rooted in a frustrated sense of entitlement and superiority and the right is giving those people a voice. That is why we as a minority should speak up.

My daughters and their friends used to think Feminism was an uncool anachronism but as we saw on the women's march they have woken up now...........

RedToothBrush Tue 07-Feb-17 14:16:34

Faisal Islam ‏*@faisalislam* (yesterday)
Tory rebel MP says to me backers "Enough to threaten majority - even with DUP & some Labour" incl some who "never rebelled before" on NC110:

... in practice (given tonight's numbers) that has to mean 20-30 Tory rebels on this issue of Parliament having a say if there is No deal
... none have gone public, nor put name down on this amendment.. Whips might calculate that the rebels are bluffing. Find out 5ish tomorrow

Faisal Islam ‏*@faisalislam* (today)
Tory Potential Rebel MPs put in a list of assurances they were seeking over the timing of a final deal vote before Cabinet this morning...
.suggestion that New Clause 110 might cause some problems on numbers at 6pm vote - D.Davis might offer some assurances on timing just ahead

Peregrina Tue 07-Feb-17 14:21:11

I am not sure that pre-nuptial agreements are a good idea, but I do think that couples need to have serious discussions on some issues before they marry. Issues like how many children they want or none, for example.

Back in the Sixties I used to sigh over the wedding photos in the local paper. The women had all gone to a lot of trouble with their appearance; the majority of men looked like slobs. I used to wonder what on earth any woman could see in them.

It's all changed now, in that couples spend vast amounts on weddings with both getting dolled up to the nines, and I no longer read the local paper.

[Sorry, being a bit trivial there]

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