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Lexiteers welcome

(89 Posts)
babybarrister Wed 09-Nov-16 11:24:10

I have felt very alone in all of this ..... Eurosceptic but not racist and frankly not concerned by any immigration issues - any like minded eurosceptics out there?!

Valentine2 Wed 09-Nov-16 14:15:54

What are you sceptic about if not immigration?
Please please give references of actual data. We have had too much of "feelings".

babybarrister Wed 09-Nov-16 14:27:23

European arrest warrant, parliamentary immunity within the EU, the failure to censure member states for breaching EU Law - Hungary's stance on refugees being a case on point, the failure to sort out the refugee crisis etc etc

ReallyTired Wed 09-Nov-16 14:29:41

I am in sympathy with you. Most EU countries and the U.K. want different things in life. They want ever closer union where as most people in the U.K. don't. They want more decision making to be done centrally and to in affect be one country. They want a European army which would mean transferring decision making on foreign policy to the European Parliament.

I feel the situation is rather like a married couple where one partner wants a baby and the other one doesn't. There is no easy compromise that keeps each person happy. They are both better to seek an amicable divorce and go their separate ways.

If our European friends want ever closer union then who are we to stop them? In many ways the relationship changed when they all adopted the Euro and we stayed with the pound. I feel that unless we are prepared to wholeheartedly embrace the EU then we are better out of it. I am happy to accept freedom of movement in return for being in the single market.

WidowWadman Wed 09-Nov-16 14:30:33

You may not be sceptic about immigration, but you willingly supported those who are and emboldened them.

ReallyTired Wed 09-Nov-16 14:33:34

Bollox...

I was asked whether I wanted the uk to leave the European community. I wasn't asked about freedom of movement. Saying that I have willingly supported racists is nonsense.

babybarrister Wed 09-Nov-16 14:55:08

I did not support any racists - I ended up spoiling my ballot paper because the official campaign was racist. I do wonder how many people were like me and effectively ended up not being to vote for the clear question on the ballot paper ....26,000 spoilt their ballot papers FWIW

WidowWadman Wed 09-Nov-16 15:20:59

If you spoiled it, then I guess I have to take it back. Thought that Lecker meant you voted for it.

Reallytired - the question wasn't asked in a vacuum, and nobody can claim they weren't aware of the toxic campaign.

babybarrister Wed 09-Nov-16 15:38:11

if it had not been for the campaign then I would have voted to leave - it was very difficult as someone who has been a eurosceptic all of my adult life ....I cannot criticise people though who answered the question on the ballot paper but did not support the actual campaign - people vote for all sorts of parties for one purpose and then end up getting something entirely different that they did not want. Conservative Remainers for example who apparently voted conservative for "other" reasons not appreciating that they were about to life the lid on a very nasty campaign by voting for the only major party who wanted a referendum. ....I for one cannot see how they are any less to "blame" for encouraging racism

ReallyTired Wed 09-Nov-16 15:53:10

"Reallytired - the question wasn't asked in a vacuum, and nobody can claim they weren't aware of the toxic campaign."

There were certainly toxic people who supported leave, but there are strong reasons for voting leave that aren't racist. I still believe that long term the uk is best outside the EU.

Spoiling your ballot paper means you don't contribute to the debate. I don't agree with the racists, but I still wanted change. Unless you vote for change it will never happen. All kind of people voted leave. The leave vote was alliance between groups like ex Welsh miners, wealthy pensioners, unemployed people in the north west. Some leave voters will have had little contact with EU migrants. It's like people ticked leave for a range of reasons.

I believe that the uk can have a mature relationship with its neighbour's without being unified with its neighbour's.

Bearbehind Wed 09-Nov-16 15:59:47

What is a 'lexiteer'?

Valentine2 Wed 09-Nov-16 17:07:46

While I do see your case OP and would myself feel concerned about it, I would still ask you what any of these things did to you on a personal level? I was sceptic of too many things too, but I felt on balance it was worth it definitely. As for your points about refugee crisis, pleas let me say this: UK (at least 10 Downing Street.please don't say we the people shouldn't feel responsible because it's us who elected Blair.) has as big a hand in destroying Mid East leading to the refugee crisis and its heartless of us to just cut ties when the fire starts to reach countries whose Prime ministers didn't destroy millions of lives.our voice mattered so much.we could have effectively stopped EU from taking my part into that had we listened to sense. It's utterly bonkers to say EU has the responsibility of that crisis just ten years down the line.
And I believe you destroyed your ballot paper because you didn't feel it was worth Leaving.because afterall,it effectively meantletting things be the way they were and it looked very likely before that night that Remain would win?

Valentine2 Wed 09-Nov-16 17:08:54

Bear
I think "op* meant the people who destroyed their ballot and were neither here nor there (I am not making fun of you op.just saying what I )

OhNoNotMyBaby Wed 09-Nov-16 17:09:45

what is a 'Lexiteer'?

OhNoNotMyBaby Wed 09-Nov-16 17:11:27

Cross post Valentine2...

Really? A Lexiteer is someone who deliberately spoiled their ballot paper? What is the point of that FFS? Either vote or don't vote. And if you don't vote, why come on here with a political question?

Struggling to understand this...

tiggytape Wed 09-Nov-16 17:14:01

A left wing leaver or eurosceptic.

The hard left have a very long tradition of Euroscepticism and have their own aims in terms of what leaving the EU might look like (eg the ability for the state to nationalise industry and offer state aid to national industries far in excess of what EU rules allow).

Their opposition to the EU is more a sovereignty one than the immigration one and the EU is seen to represent a fundamental democratic deficit. Tony Benn (left wing and Eurosceptic) said a test of this is to ask: "What power have you got? Where did you get it from? In whose interests do you use it? To whom are you accountable? How do we get rid of you?"

tiggytape Wed 09-Nov-16 17:20:24

Really? A Lexiteer is someone who deliberately spoiled their ballot paper? What is the point of that FFS? Either vote or don't vote. And if you don't vote, why come on here with a political question?

No Lexit means exit left. Some may have spoilt their paper because Lexit wasn't an option - we had the option to remain or to leave under the banner of the official leave campaign (which definitely wasn't looking to exit left)

I just found this online that explains the position a bit better. It is a stance some on the hard left and some trade unions take. Others of course are remain or remain and reform:

"The Lexiteers include a section of the trade union movement and smaller Left groups and parties. They emphasise the Cold War origins of the EU and its support for the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation aims. The EU is a pro-market and pro-austerity economic union that has through its trade policies and military alliances made by some EU nations destabilised countries like Yugoslavia, Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya and Syria. Leaving the EU offers Britain the potential and the objective basis, the Lexiteers argue, to create a sovereign state based on greater social and economic fairness in the long term."

I didn't know about the beliefs on world stability that is mentioned but I did know the economic model of the EU is disliked by some on the left.

FlaviaAnsell Wed 09-Nov-16 17:26:57

I voted Leave. My vote had nothing to do with racism and was not decided by anything any Leave campaigners said. I'd pretty much made up my mind before the campaign even started and was looking to the Remain campaign to give me a reason to change my mind. They didn't.

But I've explained my reasons for voting Leave more than once on Mumsnet, as have other people. Perhaps if people had bothered to take notice of what we said on all those other threads, instead of hurling abuse and shouting us down, we wouldn't keep having to go over the same ground again and again.

Valentine2 Wed 09-Nov-16 17:41:32

notmybaby
I am waiting for OP to clarify it and haven't read the later posts.i thought thought that's what it meant. smile

Heratnumber7 Wed 09-Nov-16 17:47:54

I voted to leave. I am not racist. I want the UK to be mistress of her own destiny and to decide who should/should not live and work here.
I don't necessarily want to reduce immigration, but I do want to be in control of it.
I want to prevent foreigners surpressing our wages by accepting low paid jobs because they are still higher than they would be in Eastern Europe.

WidowWadman Wed 09-Nov-16 17:47:57

Even if you didn't vote leave because of anything the toxic campaign said, you didn't care enough about those affected that it would have stopped you from voting for them. That's still complicit and just as deplorable. Especially in the case of those who still don't speak up against what May and her ilk are doing based on the "mandate"

ReallyTired Wed 09-Nov-16 18:48:04

"Even if you didn't vote leave because of anything the toxic campaign said, you didn't care enough about those affected that it would have stopped you from voting for them. "

Maybe the remainders don't care a damn about those who have been hurt by globalism. Freedom of movement has many advantages, but it also has disadvantages. Educated people tend to be in a stronger position to benefit from freedom of movement. Wealthy people benefit from having cheap labour to do the jobs they don't want to do.

The challenge is to mitigate the disadvantages. For example the unlimited supply of unskilled labour has allowed employers to get away with shitty wages, zero hour contracts and has made it harder for young people with no experience to find a job. Many Eastern Europeans are prepared to accept living conditions that British people don't want to tolerate.

We need to review our tax and benefit systems to support low income families without making them into dependents.

ClashCityRocker Wed 09-Nov-16 18:52:53

Reallytired that's one of the most sensible posts I've seen on mumsnet today (although probably not saying much given the nature of today's posts)

WidowWadman Wed 09-Nov-16 18:53:25

At least you now admit you don't like migration, even though it's emphatically not true that migration depresses wages or conditions.

Bearbehind Wed 09-Nov-16 18:56:38

The challenge is to mitigate the disadvantages

I agree with that sentiment however, you're just talking about FOM whereas, mitigating the disadvantages, applies to all the consequences of Brexit and sadly that fact has been completely overlooked by many Leavers.

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