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I really don't understand what you are all talking about!

(212 Posts)
Corcory Sun 09-Oct-16 14:43:30

I keep reading how upset people are with the speeches at the conservative party conference and what TM has said and what she intends to do. I keep hearing about all the xenophobia and racism in the conservative party.
Someone on another thread talked about TM's ' citizen of the world' speech and how aghast they were. What exactly are you talking about?
I really feel too many people are reading headlines or taking parts of speeches out of context and spinning them way beyond the truth.
So many of the posters on here are EU citizens and are becoming ever more frightened by the rhetoric . I really don't think it is at all fair to hype this all up and frighten people. I absolutely abhor any racist taunts or comments that too many people have had thrown at them. That sort of attitude must be called out and stamped on straight away.
But winding things up with untruths isn't helping.
The last time I brought up the fact that 'quotes' from the party speeches were inaccurate I was told in no uncertain terms I was being patronizing!

YokoUhOh Sun 09-Oct-16 14:50:53

But if Theresa May said 'UK Citizens are not citizens of the world' then what else can it possibly mean?

topsy777 Sun 09-Oct-16 14:52:47

As a leavers, I think some of the speech aee good but the likes of Rudd needs to be careful with their words. UK must remain an open economy that welcome the talents. ( though of course Rudd was a remainer, how ironic)

Reporting number of foreigner is a big step in the wrong direction. Reporting by political affliation next? then by race?

Corcory Sun 09-Oct-16 15:00:37

The sentence about citizens of the world Yoko was in the middle of a piece of her speech about bosses and companies who live off shore and have decimated ordinary worker's pensions or have twisted the tax laws to suit themselves and not paid in this country. She was aiming it at the Philip Greens of this world. Nothing to do with immigrants, and certainly doesn't deserve to be equated to Enoch Powell's rivers of blood speech as I have seen here.

Peregrina Sun 09-Oct-16 16:05:48

It's all very well Corcory - May has been in politics long enough, to know that the media can and will report speeches in soundbites and distort the message if they so choose. May might have been getting at Philip Green, but that didn't come across. Couple that with May's previous policies as Home Secretary - the author of the Go Home vans - then you end up with a not unreasonable perception that Theresa May is anti-immigrant, to a level which borders on blind prejudice. It's what people believe to be true rather than what is actually true which is what counts.

If she is really serious about people twisting tax laws to suit themselves, then I suggest she starts with her own Government.

crazycatguy Sun 09-Oct-16 16:12:43

Reported hate crimes committed against myself three times since the vote.

There is a distinction between being anti-immigrant and anti-immigration. PM pandering to UKIP and being the latter. More Brits than I ever imagined acting in the former.

topsy777 Sun 09-Oct-16 16:17:58

UK retreats on plans to make companies list foreign workers

www.ft.com/content/5761ef24-8e12-11e6-8df8-d3778b55a923

With subscribe or google title to read

Corcory Sun 09-Oct-16 16:23:17

That is appalling Crazy. I'd love to know how we can put a stop to all this hate crime.
Racist in my view is anti-immigrant or anti any race that isn't your own.

The problem I see with trying to discuss controlling immigration is seen as anti-immigration which I don't think it is.
I voted leave because I didn't agree with uncontrolled free movement of people from the EU. I am not anti-immigration and I don't think the government are.

Justchanged Sun 09-Oct-16 16:26:03

I think you need to listen to the speech from the perspective of someone who has moved to the UK from abroad, like my DH (PhD educated, often mistaken for English) and who has settled here for over 20 years, married to a Brit (me) and who now feels that this is home.

We can all agree that Google needs to pay more tax and Philip Green shouldn't raid the pension fund etc. We can also agree that there are parts of the UK which have been totally neglected, where people feel left behind and where governments should focus their attention.

However, there were parts of the speech that marked a new tone from a PM. She claimed to speak for those who lost their jobs or had a pay-cut due to immigration. Hang on, does that mean DH has stolen a job from a British person? Does that make sense in a time of record low unemployment?

She also claimed that those who saw themselves as having lots in common with people from other countries - like we do as our friends are a mixed bunch of British and other nationalities - were 'citizens of nowhere'. What about our children who have dual nationality and are proud of it - are they 'citizens of nowhere' too?

The overriding message that I took away from it was that families like ours - part British/part European, educated and yes living in London - were not welcome in her vision of the country. It is hard to express how it feels to live somewhere where you thought was home, but where the PM makes you feel that you are an unwelcome intruder.

Peregrina Sun 09-Oct-16 16:29:25

I am not anti-immigration and I don't think the government are.
I am quite sure that you are sincere in your beliefs, Corcory. I am not 100% convinced about the Government. As far as the General Public are concerned, used to being fed soundbites from the Daily Mail and Express, the distinction between immigrants and immigration is too finely nuanced to be easily understood.

Corcory Sun 09-Oct-16 16:30:05

Peregrina - The citizen of the world thing was right in the middle of a long part of her speech about clamping down on unscrupulous companies and bosses. If you actually read or listen to the passage it means only one thing and has absolutely nothing to do with immigrants.
It is the media and bloggers with an axe to grind that have taken this entirely out of context quite intentionally and have a lot to answer for. They are the ones who are stirring up hatred where there is none.

mollie123 Sun 09-Oct-16 16:30:55

yes the reference to Hitler and mein kampf by a certain LBC reporter was dishonest and fuelling the hatred that some remainers feel towards any one who wants to control immigration and leave the EU (not Europe)
To those who are 'terrified' or 'cringing' and hating the country they are fortunate to live in - please stop believing everything you see on Facebook or |Social media. Facts are not checked - the furore that went round the world about one LSE 'expert' being denied a lucrative role in negotiations about leaving the EU were based on one reported Tweet - but hey let's not let facts get in the way of a good headline.
I for one have had enough of people hating this country because we are trying to tighten our borders and track where people are working and living (this country is far to lax compared with other EU countries, as well as Australia, Canada and the States ) and it is not in any way comparable to 1930s germany angry.
In a nutshell - you have no right to call anyone who voted Leave - as ignorant, bigoted, xenophobic or fascist - that is insulting and hateful.

Justchanged Sun 09-Oct-16 16:33:15

Corcory, May is clearly anti-immigrant per se. That is the only way the policy on clamping down on foreign students - not just bogus colleges - but educated foreign students who could contribute much to the future of the country- makes sense.

The official Leave campaign (Boris, Gove, Steve Hilton, Charles Moore) etc all claimed that there were pro-immigrant and didn't even necessarily want immigration to fall, just be 'controlled'. However, for the sake of victory, they stood idly by as the campaign was swept on a UKIP xenophobic, inward-looking anti-globalisation tide. They are now finding that once they have won, that tide is unstoppable and that their vision of a outward-looking, Singapore style UK is not going to happen and instead we are moving to an inward-looking xenophobic island.

Fortnum Sun 09-Oct-16 16:35:22

The reason is because they are Social Justice warrior loons who will latch on to any 'ism' to further their lefty agenda. They are actually causing more upset than most! In the last 5 years we have become a nation of pansies ! Hate Crime for example - if a crime is commit against a minority (crime happens to lots of different people) and EVEN if there is no evidence to suggest it, but the Victim FEELs it maybe because of their minority status , it is recorded as a hate crime.

Corcory Sun 09-Oct-16 16:43:01

Justchanged - she didn't say that at all. Nothing about having friends from different countries or about having dual nationality!! Where on earth did you get that from?
This is what she said 'But today, too many people in positions of power behave as if they have more in common with international elites than with the people down the road, the people they employ, the people they pass in the street. But if you believe you are a citizen of the world, you are a citizen of nowhere. You don't understand what the word citizen means. So if you are the boss who earns a fortune but doesn't look after your workers. An international company that treats tax as an optional extra or a company boss who raids the worker's pensions we are going to come after you' - I didn't take down the last sentence completely so may not be exactly what was said but it was definitely to do with bosses on their yaughts sailing round the med. not you husband.

Justchanged Sun 09-Oct-16 16:45:25

The comparison of the proposal to make companies list their foreign workers with that of Hitler to me is totally apt. Hitler started off gradually against the Jews, making families who had lived in Germany for centuries 'other'. As a British-European educated family living in London, May made it clear that we are not welcome in this country - that we are 'citizens of nowhere' - enemies of the real British people.

When May sympathised with 'immigrants taking your job/lowering our wages' she legitimised immigrants as a scapegoat for the country's ills. This scapegoating of immigrants has been pursued by the Sun/Mail/Express for 10 years +, and has now obviously been absorbed by a lot of the population.

I found this article in the Irish Times the best commentary on Brexit - the British people have been groomed by a right-wing press...

www.irishtimes.com/culture/books/uk-was-groomed-irish-writers-throw-book-at-brexit-1.2701474

yumyumlama Sun 09-Oct-16 16:52:24

Corcory, I'd give up - justchanged will only listen to evidence which supports her worldview.

Corcory Sun 09-Oct-16 16:53:25

Justchanged - where do you get the idea that the leave campaign was ' swept along on a UKIP, xenophobic, inward looking, anti globalization tide'.
Yet more misconception's that have absolutely nothing to do with what is going on.
They are talking of having trade deals with countries from all over the world as well as the EU and widening our outlook. They are talking about increasing our exports. I just don't understand this misconception at all.

Justchanged Sun 09-Oct-16 16:54:08

Corcory - I listened to the speech live. She said that there were people who felt they had more in common with " international elites than with the people down the road" and that "But if you believe you’re a citizen of the world, you’re a citizen of nowhere. You don’t understand what the very word ‘citizenship’ means."

I feel very much an EU citizen. I have lived abroad for a year, married a foreigner, speak a couple of languages, have a couple of degrees and feel as much European as British. Obviously, I do not understand what 'citizenship' means. Cosmopolitan used to be something to aspire to, not an insult.

You seem to read a nuance that she only meant 'bosses' and business executives. I read it squarely as anyone who feels that they have as much or more in common with people from other countries than many from the UK. When that is combined with lists of foreign workers, then we are in very worrying territory indeed.

Peregrina Sun 09-Oct-16 16:59:11

It is the media and bloggers with an axe to grind that have taken this entirely out of context quite intentionally and have a lot to answer for. They are the ones who are stirring up hatred where there is none.

If that were truly so, they would not succeed in stirring up hatred. The field needs to be fertile for the seeds to grow.

Bearbehind Sun 09-Oct-16 17:03:10

I voted leave because I didn't agree with uncontrolled free movement of people from the EU

The trouble is corcory, that is is going to come at an enormous price.

Given the Home office have said that none of the EU migrants currently here will be deported a lot of people are going to be mighty pissed off about that.

The pain of the plummeting pound, shitty trade deals, loss of passporting or any other variation on what Brexit will bring will be felt long before any benefit from controlling immigration will even register.

In fact immigration will probably self regulate as no one in their right mind will want to come here

I veer between the government not having a clue what's going on to them actually being very calculated. I think the truth is probably a mixture of both.

I think stoking the anti immigration fire is to try and detract from the catastrophe we are walking into.

Corcory Sun 09-Oct-16 17:04:19

It doesn't take much for people to shout racist on these boards so it's very easy to scare people I fear.
Obviously this isn't helped by the appalling abuse some people like crazycat have received.

Peregrina Sun 09-Oct-16 17:10:30

Facts are not checked - the furore that went round the world about one LSE 'expert' being denied a lucrative role in negotiations about leaving the EU were based on one reported Tweet - but hey let's not let facts get in the way of a good headline.

Deny that if you will. A well respected Danish researcher did tweet that. That was what she had been told. The plot thickens as to just who exactly in the FCO planted the idea for the LSE administration to issue their advice.

That is FACT.

Wellthatsit Sun 09-Oct-16 17:15:15

OP, I agree with you. And I am not a Tory voter and I voted Remain.

I am thoroughly sick of the media blatantly manipulating what politicians say, and thoroughly sick of the public for falling for all the bollocks spouyed on social media.

The public is becoming hysterical.

Corcory Sun 09-Oct-16 17:16:59

Justchanged - she said ' too many people in positions of power behave as though they have more in common with international elites'. The previous sentences had said things to the effect that if you are a boss you have a duty to train up young people and pay your taxes in your country of origin if I remember correctly. So you can go on about the nuance I have taken if you like but what I am saying is a fact. You are the one taking a very nuanced view. As for the Hitler reference!
Peregrina - was the 'we can help you go home' van slogan not aimed at illegal immigrants?

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