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Democracy and sovereignty?

(21 Posts)
smallfox2002 Tue 04-Oct-16 10:04:54

We heard that this was what the leave vote was about ( cause it wasn't about immigration no, no no.) So it appears that the new " Great Repeal act" will allow the government to use Henry VIII clauses to repeal legislation. basically meaning that the legislation to say the Secretary of State can change the legislation without having to go back to parliament for its approval.

The government will essentially be allowed to change legislation at will, without having to go to (the sovereign) parliament to get it ratified. Basically by passing democracy.

So despite the referendum being supposedly about democracy and sovereignty, we are going to see even more undemocratic actions being taken by the British government "Taking Back Control" My arse, giving up control more like.

Just like all the other arguments for leaving, it is actually deeply flawed.

jaws5 Tue 04-Oct-16 10:32:17

Totally agree. This is so depressing! I suspect most Leave voters don't truly care about the democratic process, just an easy quick decision in the form of a referendum and then say the government know what they are doing (!) and it will all be fine -- at least the Leavers I know, they seem to have complete trust in the three Brexiteers at al. But hey, to be involved in the democratic process is time-consuming when you cold be watching Bake Off!

jaws5 Tue 04-Oct-16 10:34:04

and in the meantime, the hard-won rights that make our lives a million times better than in the good 'ol days will be erased, one by one, in the most undemocratic way of all.

user1470043860 Tue 04-Oct-16 10:39:09

will allow the government to use Henry VIII clauses to repeal legislation

Which ones?

RedToothBrush Tue 04-Oct-16 10:54:38

Its a fascist government. This is the thing that reveals it.

UKIP no longer need to exist. The Conservatives became UKIP.

SapphireStrange Tue 04-Oct-16 10:59:53

I don't know about fascist, red (not yet anyway...), largely because fascist rulers tend to co-opt the police and military. But I do take your point, and parliamentary sovereignty seems to be being eroded before our eyes with May's Tudor manoeuvres.

And I totally agree about the Tory/UKIP mind-meld.

RedToothBrush Tue 04-Oct-16 11:15:27

I think its more a matter of time rather than something that isn't there.

wait until surveillance laws increase. Wait for a crack down on the right to protest. Etc etc.

May's comment about subverting democracy by using the courts was enough of a demonstration of intent than anything.

OlennasWimple Tue 04-Oct-16 20:05:22

Can anyone link the details of the proposed use of the "Henry VIII legislation"?

RedToothBrush Tue 04-Oct-16 23:26:18

Several links on westministenders thread. Several blogs by lawyers and constitutional experts. ( Not necessarily pro-remain sources too)

crossroads3 Wed 05-Oct-16 05:47:29

I too am appalled by what is going on. What can we do? Will write to everyone in parliament that I can think of. Have already written to my MP but that was before May started showing her true ghastly colours so need to write again. Have joined the Lib Dems. Have been on 3 marches but to be honest I don't think they achieve much.

What can we do to stop not so much Brexit now (much as I would like that) but the Tories and their awful right wing version of it.

Am scared of the xenophobic and undemocratic things which are coming out of the Tory Party Conference.

crossroads3 Wed 05-Oct-16 05:54:30

Things which are making their way into the media and further bolstering the us and them mentality which is now going to become more entrenched. Headlines like the attached one are beyond offensive. As someone who literally embodies our connection to the continent (English father, Italian mother, childhood mostly spent in Belgium) I find it deeply upsetting. I am OK though as I sound very English. Am scared for those who don't and who will be targeted more and more by nutters. Or feel totally unwelcome despite their massive economic, social and cultural contribution.

crossroads3 Wed 05-Oct-16 05:58:23

And how long before the overt wish to exclude extends to non white British people (always and still targets for abuse).

We are in very dangerous territory.

Peregrina Wed 05-Oct-16 09:14:22

We are in very dangerous territory.

We are indeed. My mixed race, foreign born DIL, took out British Citizenship because of her fears about UKIP getting the ascendancy. She says though, that even if your ID papers are in order, that won't protect you when the chips are down. Fortunately, she also has nationality of another EU country.

shutthefrontdoor123 Wed 05-Oct-16 09:20:37

Has anyone noticed that Medical schools are full of British Asians - the sons and daughters of immigrants who came here, worked hard, valued education and making something of themselves. More British doctors doesn't mean doctors with white skin. They are most likely to be brown and speaking in a cut-glass British accent. How is that going to go down with the racist, Blue-rinse Daily Mail readers. They'll still complain - how much longer will the government keep pandering to this bigotry.

lifeistooshort Wed 05-Oct-16 09:21:58

This is indeed a very worrying development and the risk of abuse of power is certainly very real.

Gini99 Wed 05-Oct-16 09:30:13

Olennas - there is a good blog post on the Bill from a very highly respected Cambridge academic here

He says:

"There is very little detail so far on how that process will be undertaken. But there is every prospect that through its Great Repeal Bill the Government will seek to get Parliament to confer upon Ministers substantial powers to carry out that process themselves. The Prime Minister said in her speech that “[a]ny changes in the law will have to be subject to full scrutiny and proper Parliamentary debate”. However, it is almost inconceivable that the entirety of the process whereby the body of domesticated EU law is to be reviewed — and some, perhaps much, of it adjusted or removed — could be carried out in this way. The strong likelihood is that the process will be carried on largely by executive means, through the insertion into the Great Repeal Bill of wide-ranging powers enabling Ministers, rather than Parliament, to repeal or amend domesticated EU legislation. That, of course, would pile irony upon irony, as a Government determined to restore parliamentary sovereignty while giving Parliament no say over the triggering of Article 50 moved seamlessly into a vast accumulation of executive law-making power that would marginalise Parliament’s role in shaping the post-Brexit legislative landscape "

jaws5 Wed 05-Oct-16 09:36:07

shutthefrontdoor absolutely right! I have met so many British Asian students whose parents came here in the 70s and 80s, worked incredibly hard and encouraged their children to study. Maybe those Leave voters could follow their example

jaws5 Wed 05-Oct-16 09:38:08

gini that's extremely worrying. All in the name of democracy, right?

lifeistooshort Wed 05-Oct-16 10:00:20

Thanks Gini. Very interesting extract that summarises the issue eloquently

Gini99 Wed 05-Oct-16 10:17:39

Jaws5 - yes it is and just to be clear Mark Elliott (whose blog it is) is a very eminent and careful professor of law, he is not a campaigning blogger looking to make political points so I would take him very seriously.

If anyone doesn't know what they are, a Henry VIII clause is one that gives the executive the power to change an Act of Parliament by delegated legislation i.e. a minister can change an Act that has gone through Parliament without having to go through Parliament again. If they are very tightly defined and have suitable procedural conditions put in then there might be an argument in favour of them as they allow inconsequential changes to be made without having to take up valuable time in Parliament. They are being drafted in ever looser and broader ways that allow really significant changes to be made in a huge range of areas without much effective oversight.This new Bill could go even further because EU law potentially impacts on so many areas and the task is so huge so they will no doubt say they 'need' broad powers. For at least a decade academics, MPs and lawyers have been warning about this but it's not exactly the kind of thing that grabs the headlines.

If anyone is interested in the issue in general, the same blog has a pre-Brexit comment by the same lawyer discussing a Supreme Court judge's fears about the use of the powers here

lifeistooshort Wed 05-Oct-16 13:33:41

...and no this (although probably not the best source)!!!

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