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Well, there goes one pipedream we were sold ...

(73 Posts)
LurkingHusband Mon 05-Sep-16 16:56:08

That the UK could magic up a "points based system" for immigration.

For anyone planning on marrying a foreigner (assuming it's not made illegal) this should give them pause for thought :

"I want a system where the government is able to decide who comes into the country - I think that's what the British people want. A points-based system means that people come in automatically if they just meet the criteria," she added.

So rather than a predetermined set of criteria, every case is chosen on it's merits ? No chance of any latent racism rearing it's head there, then ?

Bearbehind Mon 05-Sep-16 17:14:42

The use of the word 'we' implies you voted Leave OP.

If so, how are you feeling about the developments thus far?

Helmetbymidnight Mon 05-Sep-16 17:23:42

I think 'we' here refers to the British electorate. I would be surprised if lurking was a leaver.

LurkingHusband Mon 05-Sep-16 17:28:15

No, the "we" was rhetorical device, just to annoy the Brexiters. It's a way of passing the time grin.

I voted remain, which is what I reckon we will end up with, after an awful lot of expense, and spin. It won't be called remain of course. It will be sold as a triumph.

But when you actually dig into the detail, it will be same old same old.

Already, Japan has kindly (or not so kindly) pointed out that it would be important to them that UK employees of Japanese companies would be able to move around the EU as well as EU employees coming to the UK.

Now, by all means, I am sure the UK could find the diplomatic phrase for "get fucked". It probably translates into Japanese as "thanks, we're off".

I posted this, because "points based immigration" was considered a sine non qua of Brexit. So for the PM to kibosh it so quickly, suggests we should be prepared for more "this is what will happen in Brexits" to ... well, not happen.

Buzzardbird Mon 05-Sep-16 17:32:51

Wonder if the 'points based system' works on shade of brown?

LurkingHusband Mon 05-Sep-16 17:35:02

Wonder if the 'points based system' works on shade of brown?

Not really sure, but as one wag has already pointed out, anyone who travels into the UK via Eurostar has already passed a points-based system.

Corcory Mon 05-Sep-16 21:12:48

Your all so ready to put a racist slant on everything aren't you!

ImperialBlether Mon 05-Sep-16 21:16:37

I can completely understand the Japanese saying that. Why would you say "get fucked" for them wanting that?

Peregrina Mon 05-Sep-16 21:17:39

But unfortunately people who want to curb immigration usually do put a racist slant on things.

We have had quite a lot of talk in some Tory quarters about the 'old Commonwealth' i.e. Canada, Australia, New Zealand, and you can bet your bottom dollar that they are not thinking of Aboriginals, Maori and Inuits when they are talking about those countries.

Corcory Mon 05-Sep-16 21:42:51

Well I don't Peregrina and I can't say I've seen any of that on these boards but plenty of insinuations.
The minute anyone mentions the commonwealth they are accused of empire building or racism. The only time I have mentioned the commonwealth has been in relation to trade deals as many of them seem quite keen to do deals with us.

Peregrina Mon 05-Sep-16 21:52:11

Today's news, for example, is Theresa May is negotiating with Australia - not Bangladesh or Pakistan. Yet we get a lot of textiles from the latter two countries, so could probably absorb more trade from there.

Peregrina Mon 05-Sep-16 21:56:30

OK you could say that she is negotiating with G20 countries, and neither Pakistan or Bangladesh are G20. But I didn't hear about her negotiating with India or Indonesia today.

Corcory Mon 05-Sep-16 22:12:10

She spoke to the Indian delegation too. I don't know about Indonesia.

Peregrina Mon 05-Sep-16 22:22:38

I don't necessarily think there will be blatant racist discrimination and indeed, I would expect that the Indians will probably be well placed to come to this country, with a growing educated middle class, who already have the advantage of having learnt English.

Corcory, just as a general point, do you really think that the racists in this country will welcome brown and black faces, however well qualified they may be?

Corcory Mon 05-Sep-16 22:57:41

Peregrina - I don't really care what the racists think to be honest!

TheElementsSong Tue 06-Sep-16 09:27:42

Corcory, but do you care what the people who feel affected by the racists think? I seem to recall you (correct me if I'm wrong) are one who wants to Leave the EU because you consider it racist and want to welcome incomers from all over the world on a level playing field?

I was on another thread yesterday on which another Leaver posted a hit-and-run series of xenophobic twaddle and proclaimed that most Leavers voted because of immigration. Another Leaver cheered her on. As so often happens, there was a convenient radio silence from any dissenting Leavers. Where were the outraged protests about racism? Of course, I am certain that the absence of comment there was because everybody else was terribly busy with more important things, after all this sort of thing is grubby and sordid.

But if you (and other Leavers like you) really want Britain to be an open, welcoming destination to people from all over the world, perhaps you might spare a thought for what message the rest of the world are getting by not contesting these views?

I speak as an immigrant, a naturalised British citizen. I jumped through the hoops, took the test, swore my allegiance, try to live a productive life in my adopted country. How do you think I, and others, feel when certain posters declare that we're just not British enough, that "they" don't want to integrate, that "they" have made the streets unrecognisable, on evidence like "they have community centres" and that most Leavers voted to stop "them"? And the only Leaver response was a cheer?

DrDreReturns Tue 06-Sep-16 09:42:52

Why is the trade deal with Australia being made into such a big thing? We don't do much trade with them - only 11% of the trade we do with Germany! India is a lower figure. The vast majority of our trade is with the EU and the States - they are the really important deals we need to do. Commonwealth countries are not as important to us economically.
My figures are from

PacificOcean Tue 06-Sep-16 09:54:51

My understanding is that the average educational background of an EU migrant (who currently enters the country freely) is significantly higher than the criteria needed to pass the current Australian points-based system. So if we were to adopt that system it could actually lower the skillset that migrants are bringing to the UK.

MangoMoon Tue 06-Sep-16 09:58:10

Ignoring the inevitable leap straight to racism, the 'points based system' was always really just a vague phrase.

The actual point was that immigration, whilst not remotely a problem on a national level (net contributors etc) was causing problems at a local level (unskilled economic migrants, that is).

I saw a clip on Newsnight last night of IDS, who put into words what it is that I (and I think a lot of Brexiters) would like to see.

He basically suggested that free movement of workers continues (as it should, and as we need), but with the control & decisions resting with the UK, on our terms.
Sectors that needed to recruit outwith the UK can carry on doing so (skill gaps etc), but for unskilled work companies cannot automatically recruit externally - they would have to prove that there is a need to do so.

That was the sticking point re immigration for the majority of people, the overwhelming surge of unskilled workers in concentrated areas - usually from poorer countries of origin, therefore more susceptible to being exploited by the big employers - allowing the employers to keep the 'maximum wage' at minimum wage for most unskilled work.

Nationality, country of origin, colour of skin, religion, etc etc etc had no bearing at all on the vast majority of voters (obviously a vocal minority are the exception, but any right minded person does not subscribe to that view in my experience).

TheElementsSong Tue 06-Sep-16 10:14:52

had no bearing at all on the vast majority of voters

But how do you know Mango, any more than other posters who equally confidently declare otherwise? Seems to me anyone can just announce that the vast majority of voters happen to agree with whatever their own views are, everybody else is not right thinking, etc.

Corcory Tue 06-Sep-16 10:17:49

When I said I don't care what the racists think I mean that their views should not be taken into account when looking at immigration. They are a vial minority whom I deplore. So I don't care what they think.
Of course I have sympathy for victims of racists and this is not something that should be tolerated in this country. The comments on the recent thread about non integration was more than a little odd when it comes to recent Eastern European migrants in my view. But there was plenty of outrage expressed about those views so I didn't think I needed to add my two penith.

MangoMoon Tue 06-Sep-16 10:24:09

To be fair, I said "the vast majority of voters" wrt presuming that the vast majority of 17+ million people are not rampant racists, motivated by nothing more than "Nationality, country of origin, colour of skin, religion, etc".

Corcory Tue 06-Sep-16 10:24:19

Well Elements - I for one am in complete agreement with Mango and I certainly can verify that the leave voters I know feel the same. There was a panel of leave voters on one of the Brexit programmes on the BBC yesterday and they all said the same thing.
Oh dear I'd better watch Smallfox will be accusing me of hiding my racism behind my reasonableness again!!

MangoMoon Tue 06-Sep-16 10:25:44

And I did clarify "in my experience" as well grin

Peregrina Tue 06-Sep-16 10:28:57

......but for unskilled work companies cannot automatically recruit externally - they would have to prove that there is a need to do so.

I certainly wouldn't mind seeing employers be expected to do this. I suspect you would find that for the things like fruit picking the resident British citizens were too elderly to be able to do the work, so the proof of need to import workers would be easily gained.

That was the sticking point re immigration for the majority of people, the overwhelming surge of unskilled workers in concentrated areas

With the exception of Lincs and the fens, the complaints about immigrants came from areas which had seen very little immigration. It was a piece of pure prejudice stirred up by the likes of Farage.

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