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After 'Independence'. 'Civil War'

(20 Posts)
RBeer Sat 13-Aug-16 15:15:12

As a general rule of history a period of civil war follows Independence. America, Ireland, Iraq etc.
If the UK deemed itself to have achieved a sort of Independence, then a period of Civil War is a natural outcome. Of course the Independence was of a non violent one so it should follow that the civil war will too.
"History repeats itself because no one was listening the first time."

But it will pit fellow man against fellow man.

"Pro-Brexit staff sue employers over 'cultural bullying' from Remain supporters at work*

RBeer Sat 13-Aug-16 23:38:36

"Employers are facing a wave of compensation claims from staff members who feel they have been bullied at work because of their views over Brexit, lawyers have warned.

Workers who voted for Britain to leave the European Union in the referendum in June have complained of experiencing hostile remarks, harassment, and “cultural bullying” from Remain-supporting colleagues.

PwC, the consultancy firm, is advising four companies whose pro-Brexit staff have lodged legal complaints over angry clashes in the office and on social media.

Brexit is also putting relationships under strain at home, according to marriage counsellors who are dealing with the emotional fall-out of the referendum. Relate, the counselling service, has compiled advice for couples who are clashing in the aftermath of the vote because they took different sides in the referendum.

The strains suggest that the aftermath of the referendum could cost businesses money and couples their relationships.

In the weeks since polling day, Westminster has been rocked by political turmoil, while the Bank of England has had to step in to shore up the economy.

Elaine Taylor, a counsellor with Relate in Cambridge, said all her clients spontaneously raised the Brexit vote with her during the sessions following polling day.

Economic uncertainty was causing added strain for couples who were struggling with their own financial decisions, such as whether to buy a new house, she said.

“If you are OK in your family dynamic then it’s fine. But if you are already at war over other issues, it can be just another nail in the coffin,” she said.

“Every one of my clients mentioned Brexit as an issue in the sessions that followed the vote. It wasn’t the reason people were coming in, but it added to their stress and put more pressure on relationships.”
Mrs Taylor said her own son and husband had taken different sides over Brexit and had disagreed with each other.

She decided not to tell either of them how she had voted as a result, so she did not appear to be taking sides.

“This can certainly cause deep and long-lasting rifts, especially if these kinds of debates are not managed well,” she said.

Meanwhile, lawyers warned that businesses are being sued by workers who voted for Britain to leave the EU but now feel they are experiencing harassment and “cultural bullying”.

Ed Stacey, head of the employment law team at PwC, told the Financial Times that companies who backed one side or the other during the referendum could be more at risk of legal action from staff who took the opposing view and have missed out on promotion.*

Werkz Sat 13-Aug-16 23:47:43

My take is that civil war is not an outcome of independence, but rather that independence tends to be a stage within a process of internal political turmoil, which often ends in internal warfare, iyswim.

So we kinda are in the "civil war" right now; it's just that we haven't got to the point where people are shooting guns yet. And they may never do. It may never get that far.

But I do wish people would be aware of the possibility, because then they might be a little more considered about their language.

Peregrina Sun 14-Aug-16 10:24:43

So you mean somewhere like the former Yugoslavia, or pre Indepenedence Ireland? Or, and I don't think this will lead to bloodshed, the way that the move for Scottish Independence has been brewing since Maggie Thatcher introduced the Poll tax to Scotland?

Yes, we could be in that sort of pre civil war period.

fakenamefornow Sun 14-Aug-16 10:38:15

I think the fact that Scotland and NI both voted remain and that the Good Friday Agreement was build on the back of EU law it's not impossible that we could be facing real civil unrest. We have blood on the streets over football in this country ffs.

Nobody is going to be happy with the result of this, even Brexiters as some comprise with the EU will be reached, although looking at the age profile of Brexit voters and how long this process is likely to take, many of them will be dead before we're even out of the EU.

Peregrina Sun 14-Aug-16 10:53:30

I certainly agree with respect to NI. It's one of the reasons I voted Remain - I think it was almost criminal to risk squandering a hard-earned peace. But a lot of the rest of the UK don't even realise that NI is part of the UK

The Brexiters are at loggerheads already; wasn't Farage, who's a windbag predicting Civil war if the Brexiters don't get what they want? But without anyone asking what the Brexiters do want.

Is Theresa May clever enough to pull off an agreement which reconciles as many competing sides as is possible? Or will she be another Tory PM who is destroyed by the Eurosceptics?

GloriaGaynor Sun 14-Aug-16 17:02:33

Equating leaving the EU with 'independence' is absurd.

If anything, we've lost rather than gained independence.

The situation in this country is more akin to circumstances when the far right has gains ascendency, like Petain in France. But the war put Petainistes and the Free French in situations that wouldn't have arisen in peace time.

SapphireStrange Mon 15-Aug-16 17:20:59

I agree, Gloria.

Umbreallboats Mon 15-Aug-16 17:39:56

I agree with Gloria. The UK were never ruled by the EU, that was just one of the many silly myths in the anti-EU narrative.

RBeer Mon 15-Aug-16 19:02:25

Agree. But others believe in this Independence so don't be shocked at the notion of a 'Civil War'.
Noone believed the vote was going to be No so never discount history.

RedToothBrush Tue 16-Aug-16 12:19:56

Is that a veiled threat?

pointythings Tue 16-Aug-16 20:27:23

What worries me is the possibility of unrest when the government finally pulls their thumb out and decides what Brexit really means - and when the hardline Brexiteers who were in it because of immigration realise they are not going to get what they wanted. There's one poster on here who on another Referendum thread was describing scenes of immigrants being put on planes being paid for by the British tax payer - that scenario is really unlikely, but I reckon a fair number of people thought that was what they were voting for. It could make the 2011 riots look like a walk in the park.

SapphireStrange Wed 17-Aug-16 10:17:08

In the immediate aftermath of the vote I was worried that any plan that didn't please everyone might result in civil unrest.

I feel more sanguine about it now. I can't see enough Leavers really being that arsed about it.

I'm more concerned about unrest where it would get really ugly – in Northern Ireland But I think/hope/pray that May is sensible enough not to ride roughshod over the Good Friday Agreement and would take a few minor scuffles in Dagenham or wherever instead.

Peregrina Wed 17-Aug-16 10:50:40

I think if some decent investment could be made in the regions then the Leave vote there might be forgotten. I saw their leave vote more as a protest against Westminster.

SapphireStrange Wed 17-Aug-16 11:06:26

I agree, Peregrina. It's quite striking that many Leave-heavy areas are precisely the ones that successive governments have left up a gum tree (north-east England, south Wales, Derbyshire).

mollie123 Wed 17-Aug-16 11:24:49

If anything, we've lost rather than gained independence.
that is such an absurd statement I don't know where to begin.
We were an independent sovereign country when we entered into a European free trade area before the EU was even envisaged.
The EU has morphed into an autocratic/undemocratic behemoth from which we want to claim a bit more independence for ourselves.
I do wish that people would not keep saying Scotland and NI voted 'Remain' when a sizeable minority there voted to 'Leave' just as a sizeable minority voted to 'Remain' in England.
There will be no 'civil war', nor a far right uprising
The civil war in America occurred some 100 years after independence and was to do with slavery not the declaration of independence from the British hmm

SapphireStrange Wed 17-Aug-16 11:29:34

mollie, could you give some examples of how the EU is 'an autocratic/undemocratic behemoth'?

Without using the easily challenged notions of 'unelected bureaucrats' or 'we have to accept x% of EU law'?

Scotland and NI did vote to remain. I'm in London and am fine about saying that London voted to remain too; by more than the overall vote to leave.

RBeer Mon 22-Aug-16 11:44:49

Headline from the Telegraph

The vast forces of the anti-Brexit elite are already regrouping. Theresa May must resist them

SapphireStrange Mon 22-Aug-16 11:46:28

That headline is hilarious. I've said it before, but –and it was the Remain side that were peddling 'Project Fear'?

RedToothBrush Mon 22-Aug-16 16:40:08

The anti-Brexit 'elite'

Would this include NI and Scotland who are minorities who are about to have various things imposed on them by Westminster by the look of it? And the people who are concerned about this.

Not least those people who understand the relationship between Westminster - NI - Dublin and things like the GFA and HRA?

And the fact that 'taking back control' seems to be an attack on the democratic institutions of the devolved nations of the UNITED Kingdom.

Arh yes.

Civil war indeed. Who is starting that civil war?

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