EU Redlines - Deal Breakers + Makers

(26 Posts)
BengalCatMum Tue 12-Jul-16 13:27:26

I would like to ask everyones views; Remainer's and Leaver's...
Please enter into this parallel hypothetical universe...

- For Remainer's... What would have been your redline for leaving EU, or deal breakers?

- For Leaver's... What would have been your redline for staying EU, or deal makers?

- Or if there was none, please state that (ie. Remainer regardless of anything / Leaver regardless of anything)

This is somewhat hypothetical ie. Remainers may have to imagine an EU Army, or ISIS run Syria joining EU. Leavers may have to imagine an EU single market with no legislation or freedom of movement.

I want people to think about what it was that would change their mind from their current view - regardless of whether this is a 'likely' outcome
(ie. Turkey joining is debatable whether it is likely)

Please state YOUR view and try not to debate about others views - everyone is entitled to their redlines/ deal breakers/ makers and the hypothetical nature means people will be stating things that aren't currently or will never be 'true'.

Thanks for sharing your views flowers

BengalCatMum Tue 12-Jul-16 13:29:34

Leaver

I would stay if...
The EU was ONLY a simple trade bloc (No complex bloc - ie. legislation, payments, free movement ect)

Just simple group of countries with a free trade 0% tariff agreement.

Ohwhatalovelysummer Tue 12-Jul-16 13:39:32

What Bengal said. Couldnt have put it better myself.

Underparmummy Tue 12-Jul-16 13:42:50

Remainer

I would leave if...

Really tough one, the only example I can think of would be if there was inter EU warfare going on.

As I said on the other thread, I know I'm extreme. I really believe we are better, safer populations working together.

MaidOfStars Tue 12-Jul-16 13:46:53

Just simple group of countries with a free trade 0% tariff agreement
But you need to have legislation and specific policies in place to protect that. A trading bloc needs to control unfair competition between the countries, ensuring that none can undercut the other. Thus, pushing for minimum wages, environmental legislation on production methods, employment laws, quotas for products.

I'm a Remainer. An EU army might have been a deal-breaker for me. But I don't believe that will happen. ISIS-run Syria joining? Sure, that might not be ideal <understatement>. Again, would never happen though - a theocracy would be excluded from membership.

BengalCatMum Tue 12-Jul-16 14:22:08

Thanks everyone for comments so far...
It is an interesting question

BreakingDad77 Tue 12-Jul-16 14:42:10

- For Remainer's... What would have been your redline for leaving EU, or deal breakers?

It would be the euro as dont want us to be that connected.

TTIP I was worried about this to begin with but then in Europe there has been a backlash which is good as the Tories have not said that they would not seek exactly the same kind of deal outside of the EU. So is more a Tory problem for me than EU.

Im not so fussed on the EU army as NATO and UN have been rubbish over Ukraine and Syria, I may be lefty but I think we should have sent peacekeepers in a loooooong time ago. All governments have run down our Army and US even questioning now whether we can viably work with them.

I think we could have done more in Europe if we actually had useful MEP's its been pretty much set up to fail.

TheNumberfaker Tue 12-Jul-16 14:48:42

Remainer

UK losing its veto and all/ most of the other countries turning fascist or led primarily along religious lines. Other EU countries declaring war on each other or us.

I see no problem with ultimately becoming a United States of Europe.

Lighteningirll Tue 12-Jul-16 19:43:36

Leaver
I don't even want to be part of an EU trading block as the urge to Empire build is strong
There us nothing I can think of that would make me wantto be part of the EU I believe we are better off trading/researching/educating globally. The thought of condemning my dc to being part of a United States of Europe terrifies me and I will fight it with everything I have.

wowfudge Tue 12-Jul-16 21:26:25

I agree with Numberfaker wholeheartedly.

As membership of the EU demands that a state doesn't use capital punishment, it is highly unlikely an IS run Syria would ever join.

BengalCatMum Tue 12-Jul-16 21:58:39

Wow
Don't worry grin; its only hypothetical - just trying to get people to imagine a scenario where they would change their mind, no matter how extreme.

Thanks to everyone; this is really helping me see how people are fitting on a hypothetical grey scale, rather than on a solid black and white IYSWIM.
flowers - for your thoughts

Winterbiscuit Tue 12-Jul-16 23:06:49

I see no problem with ultimately becoming a United States of Europe.

Would you be happy for this to progress to other "blocs" being formed and then merging into a single world government?

wowfudge Tue 12-Jul-16 23:16:15

I can see that happening over the next couple of centuries. We're all human and many differences and barriers are being broken down with globalisation. The concept of borders between countries is a political construct.

BengalCatMum Tue 12-Jul-16 23:43:58

Winter
Wow

What are your redlines?

BengalCatMum Tue 12-Jul-16 23:45:09

Wow is yours the same as Numberfakers redlines?

Winterbiscuit Wed 13-Jul-16 01:53:25

Bengal it's a very interesting question. I can't see any scenarios where I'd be changing my mind about the EU.

We currently have 195 countries in the world and I don't see merging them into blocs as positive. Countries are a human "construct" but then so is all politics, government, business, administration, and of course the EU. I wouldn't want to be aiming for a utopia where there's only one unopposed way to run things, because it involves people being controlled to an unacceptable degree. (Fundamentalist religion for example). I prefer it when countries have their own independence, identity, ideas and strengths, and collaborate effectively.

I think the world benefits from having many diverse smaller countries, rather than a few superstates. Like a varied group of good friends who live in different houses, rather than a commune. Or a high street with various interesting independent stores. The larger the political "bloc" the more powerful it becomes, and the more difficult it is to challenge when it doesn't live up to expectations, or possibly even becomes a dictatorship with no opposition or alternative.

I'm not a fan of the ideology and direction of the EU, so realistically I can't see anything which would persuade me against Brexit.

BengalCatMum Wed 13-Jul-16 02:11:26

Winter
Thank you for your thoughts flowers

MangosteenSoda Wed 13-Jul-16 05:08:47

Remainer

I would vote leave the second the negatives of membership outweighed the benefits. I'm not pro-EU for ideological reasons, I'm pro-EU for pragmatic reasons. I currently think the benefits far outweigh the negatives.

I do also think humanity has proved it positive to work together and succeed as a group, supporting weaker members and everyone ultimately benefitting from improved conditions. Basically the historic development of human societies. The overall trend, from living in caves onwards, has been to work in bigger groups, cooperate and form more sophisticated and complex societies.

wowfudge Wed 13-Jul-16 09:43:35

My redlines would be allowing membership of fascist or communist countries or those with a religious fundamentalist government. War between EU nations. Losing the UK's veto doesn't bother me - you're either in it or you are not.

I don't think having no borders = utopia, but I would see it as a positive move to a more collaborative, tolerant society in general.

LurkingHusband Wed 13-Jul-16 14:01:36

It's a very interesting question, but totally pointless.

We are all going to get what we are given, and anyone who thinks their thoughts matter in any way, shape or form, is deluded, idiotic, or Theresa May.

The only comfort I can take from this the certain knowledge that when "Brexit" is finally concluded (oh, by the way, has anyone actually suggested a criteria for when this will be assumed to have happened ?) all the people who voted leave because: <insert reason here> will be complaining they didn't get what they wanted. No dear. No one did. That's the only way to address a situation with a 50/50 split - ensure no one is happy.

BengalCatMum Wed 13-Jul-16 15:18:18

Thanks wow for clarifying.

Joysmum Thu 14-Jul-16 09:33:57

I'm a leaver.

If we had the freedom to negotiate trade deals worldwide and make the most of world opportunities I'd have voted remain. There is far greater potential for growth in the emerging world economies and remained no in means we'd miss the boat on that.

Ideally is have wanted the EU to remain simply a free trade agreement without the federal agenda (as other world trade blocks are) but as it would have been impossible to go back to just having free trade without accepting the political, judicial and social integration, it's still a price worth paying.

concertplayer Thu 14-Jul-16 17:05:39

Remainer
If Leave had a proper policy/plans in place eg we have researched
and in 2 years we will be selling xyz to abc
We will start to reduce immigration by requiring those capable of work
to take work (with training to do the job) after a year unemployed
We will be giving people in work who look after elderly relatives
some tax reductions so we reduce the burden on them and the gvt
We will be building more affordable homes to ease Housing Benefit costs

Joysmum Thu 14-Jul-16 17:33:03

It was really interesting to talk to my mum about this today. She was a Remainers but, like me, thought long and hard about it as could see the pros and cons for both.

I asked her what would have been her line to vote leave (as I had) and she didn't really have one because anything the EU does would be slowly as it had been. The boiling frog analogy.

That's why back in the 1970's nobody would have signed up if they thought the EU was going to be more of a federal state than a free trade agreement.

Despite everyone I know who voted remain not being happy with the level of integration EU currently, they were too scared to leave rather than actually loving the EU and wanting to stay.

SoThisIsSummer Thu 14-Jul-16 18:59:09

pretty much agree with winter, I can see any scenario where it would be OK.

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