Should we guarantee the rights of eu citzens to remain unilaterally

[ReallyTired]

I think we should. They came here with the belief that they could live here.

I suppose the argument is that Spain and France may not show compassion to British citizens who have emigrated. Certainly Spain may well be tempted to use it as leverage to gain sovernity of Gibraltar. I think the chances of the French being vindictive is less.

If Scotland leaves the uk and joins the EU could there be an arrangement where ex pats become Scottish citizens? (Even if they are 100% English or Welsh) in the event of British citizens being sent back?

[caitlinohara]

Yes. God, hasn't even Farage said as much?

[Millyonthefloss2]

YES.

[EssentialHummus]

I'm one of them, so I obviously agree. But I think that whoever has the misfortune of leading the Brussels negotiations needs to have us as a bargaining chip, so it's politically naive to promise/guarantee that now.

In practice, having dealt with the UKBA plenty, there just is not the manpower to find (most EUers don't register), screen, monitor and deport the 3ish million people concerned. There is also the minor matter of who will do all the fruit picking / cleaning / ass-wiping / street sweeping / nursing if people from my neck of the woods stop turning up.

[Chris1234567890]

I wish it was just that simple. It isnt. It isnt just Spain, France, it is 27 nations who at this miment in time cannot let the EU fail or the UK succeed. (Has anyone considered our position economically if indeed the EU had died its natural death?)

Whilst of course its unpalatable to draw similarities between human beings and bargaining chips, that is indeed what the entire premise of the single market trade deal is based on. Who made EU citizens a commodity?

I am extremely concerned for our ex-pat/overseas citizens. However, with no leverage whatsoever, we will abandon them to whatever decision the EU sees fit. It is therefore highly possible that we may allow right of residency for all the right, human, compassionate reasons, to then see the EU act in entirely the opposite manner.

Whilst I absolutely agree with the sentiment here, unless the EU give the same assurances to UK ex pats pre-negotiations, Im afraid the whole 'commodity' issue remains in Brussels. I'm with Teresa May on this one, she certainly didnt make them a condition of trade. Just IMO.

[MangoMoon]

.

[PattyPenguin]

I'm sure Essential is right, in that UKBA won't be able to track down all the EU citizens who aren't supposed to be here, whoever they are when the eventual rules are formulated.

However, could such people apply for benefits (working tax credits, child tax credits, child benefit, housing benefit)? Or pensions? Or use the NHS without being charged?

What if no-one can do these things without giving their National Insurance number and NHS number? Will there be a code beside some NI numbers denoting EU citizens, on the computer system, or is there already?

[angelos02]

No. I voted out assuming that all people without British citizenship would have to apply for right to stay based on the new points system.

[lljkk]

It would be a betrayal to the Leave voters to do this.
(I am a fervent Remain voter myself, btw)
But FFS, what is point of Referendum if we don't listen to what folk meant with their votes.
Some kind of qualification process (involving applications and paying money) seems like the middle way, rather than a blanket acceptance.

I have a German friend who has lived here 8.5 yrs. Her son only knows the UK (no other language). She lives in a council house & has PT min. wage job having worked little before that. She'd probably not make the grade to stay, but hey, I didn't get the result I wanted did I.

[angelos02]

Iijkk your friend is exactly the kind of person we don't need. Fuck knows what it must be costing the taxpayer to allow her to stay.

[Chris1234567890]

I voted leave, and I DID'NT vote for ships to be lined up at our docks removing 'foreigners'!

I voted for immigration controls to be implemented not some clearing out exercise.

Teresa Mays approach, in my book is the best way forward at this stage, we of course wish to provide right to remain, so guarantees of a right to remain for our overseas ex-pats in EU, shouldnt cause Brussels a headache? Should it? Decent humanitarian organisation they are.

[EnthusiasmDisturbed]

Yes of course

[EssentialHummus]

angelos that's a slippery slope argument - 85 year old John and Mary from Hampshire are precisely the kind of people that the Costa del Sol doesn't need, but that didn't stop them going over there. Fuck knows what it's costing the Spanish taxpayer etc...

[Lweji]

You're forgetting population growth.

Every country needs children or migrants. What you don't want is an increasingly elderly population that can't be supported by those in work.

From www.migrationwatchuk.org/briefing-paper/345:

"If that immigrant contribution to natural increase is included, then the total contribution of migration to UK population growth over the period from 2001 to 2012 was between 83% and 85%."

Population growth in the UK is 0.56% per year (Wikipedia), so without migration and children of migrants, it would be at only about 0.08%.

Also from Migration Watch:
"13. Another way to look at the long term effect of immigration is to note that the birth rate (strictly speaking, ‘total fertility’) in the UK is currently 1.83. However, as the birth rate required to sustain a population is approximately 2.1, any long term population increase in the UK can only be as a result of immigration."

Quick google result on the burden of the ageing population:

www.theguardian.com/business/2015/jun/11/ageing-uk-population-increase-strain-government-spending-obr-warns

[Alisvolatpropiis]

Yes, of course.

[MangoMoon]

*I voted leave, and I DID'NT vote for ships to be lined up at our docks removing 'foreigners'!

I voted for immigration controls to be implemented not some clearing out exercise. *

Me too.

[MangoMoon]

There has to be a cut off date set as soon as possible in my opinion.

For eg:
Anyone who currently calls Britain their home will be able to apply for citizenship, with no caveats.

Anyone who makes a home here post cut-off date (the date that article 50 is triggered?) will be subject to different caveats (whatever firm they may take).

Post Brexit, controlled immigration applies.


Wrt British people who have made their homes within the EU - well, we'd just have to trust the EU to do the right thing I suppose
Whatever they decide will be their legacy in all this, so you'd like to think they'd behave in a reciprocal way.


It's definitely something that needs to be addressed ASAP though, regardless.

[Iliketeaagain]

I do think we should allow all those here to stay, but then I'm biased.. DH has lived here for nearly 20years, pays more tax and NI in a year than I get as my annual salary. Plus we have a mortgage, bank accounts, pensions etc all in the UK.
If he's not allowed to stay (I don't earn enough for a spousal visa) after all that, what support would we get to manage the fact that our lives would be turned upside down because of the government?
And he has never become a British citizen because there was never any need to do so - the government were perfectly happy taking the tax and NI, and getting back our child benefit, plus the banks were happy to lend us a mortgage based on his salary alone, irrespective of his nationality.

There are many immigrants here who's children were born in the uk, are educated here and don't know anywhere else as 'home' - what happens to them if they are not allowed to stay?

It is grossly unfair to apply immigration policy retrospectively when people have built their lives on freedom of movement within the EU.

[ReallyTired]

I voted to leave the eu. I did not vote to kick out immigrant Uganda style. I feel that any points system should not apply respectively.

I voted leave because the eu is undemocratic.

[EssentialHummus]

It is grossly unfair to apply immigration policy retrospectively when people have built their lives on freedom of movement within the EU.

Yet a version of this has happened recently with non-EU nationals and the earnings threshold.

Since I've been here - nearly a decade now - there have been patterns of: media highlighting high immigration>government insisting on meeting some or other target> government realising target is a moonshot--> government implementing ineffective but highly visible controls on some aspect of the immigrant population.

I worry that EU'ers won't be exempt from a future round of this.

From my POV, if this country wants to get a hold of immigration, they need to implement more stringent controls on the black market for labour, and be much, much more thorough at booting out people who've overstayed. Targeting whichever group of immigrants happens to be in the public eye for more stringent controls is ineffective and short-sighted.

[Fawful]

It would be a betrayal to the Leave voters to do this.

Some of them wanted a Norway system (and have said so on Mumsnet), so you can't really said that.

Or the Leave vote mean 'immigrants Out'?

Then isn't it little wonder people are vocal in the streets about wanting us out?

Re: your German friend, do you not care what happens to her?

[Fawful]

*did the leave vote mean 'Immigrants Out'

[Lweji]

I voted leave because the eu is undemocratic.

Or rather, you think it is. :)

[lljkk]

My friend could cope fine, it's her 8yo son who is going to struggle. :(
Look at Angelos post, plenty of folk only want "deserving" immigrants.
Gawd knows what else Leave voters wanted. Most of what they believe (like "undemocratic EU") is a pack of lies, anyway.

[ReallyTired]

An eight year could learn German fast enough. He would cope and make German friends. However it's unlikely that eu migrants will be kicked out even if they do claim benefits. Bad luck can happen to anyone.

What we need is tougher laws on the black market. Immigrants who work cash in hand for less than the minimum wage deserve to be kicked out.

[lljkk]

You know it's not just about learning another language... by the time the family were chucked out he could be 11-12, too.

I heard that it will cost $400 billion dollars to kick out all the documented immigrants in USA. Must be amazingly expensive prospect in UK, too.