"Nobody necessarily stays anywhere forever"(194 Posts)
Says Teresa May
Words cannot describe the RAGE I feel at this fucking government. My children would really quite like me to stay!!!!!!!!!!
It is very harsh that they won't come out and say "everyone here will be allowed to stay" because surely that is the reality.
The reason they might hold off giving guarantees is that it gives away a bargaining chip. The rest of the EU will want us to allow their citizens to stay if they wish.
If we say in advance of Article 50 that everyone already here can definitely stay, Brussels can use that against us and say "well that's very nice of you but UK citizens in Europe cannot unless you agree to X,Y and Z"
We would have lost the chance to just both agree to on a reciprocal arrangement which is what everyone knows everyone really wants (i.e. nobody here is forced to move, nobody living in other EU nations is forced to move). I think Andrea Leadsom however has says she will give up that bargaining chip to offer guarantees (I'm not sure what sort) if she is elected.
So as usual with politicians, it all about playing a game. Well if they want me to leave after 30 years they can refund all the tax, NI and pension contributions I've paid & buy my house off me at pre-Brexit market rate. Plus if they think my kids are going to pay back their student loans after they are kicked out they can FRO.
Obv in reality none of this will happen. So stop the fecking games.
It would cost an absolute fortune to enforce full-on immigration control procedures for all the EU citizens here.
Setting up an application process, monitoring the applications, allowing for an appeals process, then the cost of actually deporting people.
Then there would be the loss to the workforce and the cost of monitoring illegal employment...
It is a game, a stupid, stupid game because they are too scared to stand up to anti-immigration frothers and tell it how it is.
They definitely don't want you to leave and I think public opinion is going to be very much against us using people's insecurity over their futures here to weasel a better deal in Brussels.
I've just seen Ed Miliband speak out about this issue too.
I certainly hope all leaders just agree that if the EU try to use the insecurity of UK people abroad against us in negotiations, well so be it, we aren't going to play with people's lives like that by doing the same in return. I think that will be the position.
I think, as tiggy says this is all part of a negotiation. We don't know how the EU will treat us so cannot give too much away
I did hear on the radio that the government are also trying to avoid a situation that might encourage people to rush here before a certain date so allowing a sudden influx of people so are likely to be deliberately vague until ready to negotiate
We'll probably be allowed to stay as long as we're "contributing to the economy" (I've lost track of how many times I've heard that phrase in the last couple of weeks) but what if we dare get sick or - heaven forbid - old? I guess we can eff off where we came from then...
What about women who find themselves single parents (often with a British child/children) and aren't able to earn over the required threshold, or even need to claim benefits in some form? Should they have to go? What about their children, can they take them with them, away from their (often British) Dads?
It's not just a question of being "allowed" to stay. It's whether or not we'll still be protected in the same ways as UK citizens, which we have been until now. It's also for example suddenly finding ourselves unable to bring our ageing parents here should we ever want to. In my case, they also worked and paid taxes here for some 20 years before retiring to their country of origin, thus not costing the NHS a penny so far. I always assumed we'd have the option of bringing them (or one of them) here to look after them in their old age but it doesn't seem like that will be a sensible option.
Like Decorhate I would also like all the NI contributions and tax that DH and I have paid into the system over the past 20 years back please. Never mind the fact that we both also run businesses that employ other people. At least we can take those with us (the businesses, not the people unfortunately) if we do leave.
I know it's probably just posturing but it still makes me so angry. This is my bloody LIFE!!
they are too scared to stand up to anti-immigration frothers and tell it how it is.
According to the Guardian Gisela Stuart, the Labour MP and Brexiter (herself German) "condemned" the governments stance. How stupid are these people? The Brexit team just didn't have a fucking clue did they?
I voted to remain and I am shocked and sad that leave won. The binary choice on the referendum plus the inability of many leave voters to understand they were being misled resulted in a very foolish decision by the British people. I would like to see a second referendum but don't think it would be acceptable under the circumstances.
However, given that we are where we are, I believe Theresa May's stance is correct. We have to negotiate the terms of our withdrawal from the EU and at this stage should make no commitments nor offer any guarantees. I have no fondness for Mrs May or her party, but she is experienced and competent. That's the best we can hope for at the moment in this deplorable position we have put ourselves into.
The obvious thing to do is to apply for citizenship, if you are truly worried, rather than just irritated with the whole sorry thing.
I believe they are just being careful not to make one way promises. The EU has not guaranteed that Brits in the EU can stay, so they probably want to link the two, which I would expect to happen.
It's not even as straightforward as applying for citizenship because of being a SAHM for many years, so might struggle to prove my entitlement!
As a brit-abroad I'm utterly disgusted at the concept that migrants and the lives they've built, having followed the rules in good faith, are now political bargaining chips. How dare she reduce us to this.
A lot of EU citizens in the UK have British spouses and children with British passports.
In a scenario of mass deportation of EU citizens, what would the expectation be for these families? Usually international agreements are based on reciprocity, so the British spouse and British children would not be welcome in the country of origin of the EU spouse. What would the hardliners want these families to do? Break up? Go to a more reasonable country, like America?
I honestly wouldn't put anything past this "government".
Sorry DorothyL , I didn't want to make you anxious
I'm just stretching arguments to their "logical" conclusions to show how daft they are, and how serious and undesirable the consequences could be.
The EU has not guaranteed that Brits in the EU can stay, so they probably want to link the two, which I would expect to happen.
On the other hand, several EU states have made welcoming noises to UK citizens.
This is shocking even by leave campaign standards. I'd add that leave campaigners on here and elsewhere repeatedly insisted that EU immigrants had nothing to worry about. Check out the EU immigrant thread on the "in the news" section in on MN - several of the regular MN leave campaign spinners popped up in the first few pages to repeatedly and belligerently insist that everyone would be able to stay. Anyone who suggested that this might not be the case was accused of scaremongering.
Yet more lies.
Those saying it's a bargaining chip - have you considered what this means for filling A&E posts? (Already a shortage of doctors for these. Already NHS medics thinking twice about staying given unpleasant comments from the patients they're treating about "sending them home".)
A&E is just one area. Every brainless pandering comment like this will be tipping the decision for another few of the EU healthcare workers keeping the NHS running.
Just when the government should have been calming the rhetoric on immigrants :-/
I've even seen reports that foreign registered car drivers have been targeted for abuse; might think again about driving over in August. You might want the immigrants out, but if the tourists fuck off too, you're in trouble ...
If I left not sure who'd do my job...
Sometimes I think I should leave the country and say to my fil who voted leave "there you go, happy now?"
I agree with Margrethe. If people want to stay and have the option of applying for British citizenship, they should. Otherwise there is always the risk that they will not be able to stay, even though they have British children.
Is that so surprising? I applied for British citizenship so that I do not have to have hold a different passport from my children and will therefore never be separated from them for these reasons. It is not something to get angry over. It is logical.
It is also logical not to applied for a British passport when up until now as an EU citizen you had the exact same rights as a British citizen.
V unhelpful comment, blueshoes. All the other Tory candidates have given guarantees, most MPs agree it's the right thing to do, Lib Dem and Labour (Cooper and Burnham) have said guarantees should be given too.
We're possibly less angry than worried (if that's all right with you). Incidentally I also hold the same passport as my kids, & yes, amazingly it did not occur to me that there was a chance i might someday be separated from my kids by the Home Office!
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