Midlle Class PC white woman don't apply feminism to their sisters.

[bkgirl]

Having a catholic background and knowing how the church was a positively evil force in the past, I really detest religion getting together with the law. It was accepted at the time as being the right thing to do despite being obviously totally abhorrant.

When I go to another country I respect it's laws. What troubles me is the acceptance of Sharia courts here.

It seems that white PC women have a dreadful habit of not supporting girls who from family or peer pressure do not somehow deserve the protection of the law. I have a real problem with Theresa May saying it benefits people greatly - frankly it only benefits MEN.

www.secularism.org.uk/blog/2012/03/sharia-law-and-middle-class-feminism

[Pangurban1]

Whatever you blame the EU for, I don't think you can reasonably blame it for Sharia.

[SpanglesGalloway]

Terrible issue... but what's the link to EU referendum?

[supersoftcuddlytoys]

I agree with you entirely OP. There does seem to be a reluctance on the part of feminism in general to speak out about this. I donate on a regular basis to this organisation.

[supersoftcuddlytoys]

www.shariawatch.org.uk/

[LyndaNotLinda]

I don't know any feminists who are pro-Sharia law

I wouldn't call May 'liberal' but do agree entirely that Sharia is misogyny

[crappymummy]

I find the idea of speaking for others pretty problematic

why not let people speak for themselves, or give airtime to community organisations eg southall black sisters who live and work with these issues on a daily basis

what could, for example, Caitlin Moran contribute which might be of value here?

[bkgirl]

To be frank, I suffered abuse as a child.I detest the way to this day people cover it up.
As a teen growing up, an aunt visited from the Blackburn area and tbh I thought she was racist and recoiled from her. She kept speaking of local children getting groomed bu certain groups of men. Year after year she said it and it really upset me. I thought why on earth would the police or community not stop it. All these decades later, we have seen what has happened in the likes of Rotherham. I now feel so guilty that I didn't stop it myself somehow. Why didn't I believe her? :(
To me the PC brigade played a massive part in holding back the community from dealing with a problem so many knew about.
To me it's the same with Sharia. I honestly don't give a frig about colour or creed but I detest women and children getting attacked. I think ANY forced marriage, fgm, triple taraq, forced adoptions from any nationality are just wrong.
I just can't fathom why a religious based legal system can be ok here. One especially that so overtly discriminates against women. It's one of my issues with immigration. I don't care if its sharia or any other religious court system, when we bring in anyone from any part of the world they should obey our laws that do protect women and children.
Like take FGM, I find it so upsetting yet has there even been 1 person arrested for doing it here. In fact is it even against the law? There is this PC right on attitude that works against these victims just to please bloody culture and religion. Anyone that comes here or is here deserves FULL protection regardess of their colour. If too many extreme people come how can we offer that? They could introduce these systems as fully recognised law if they achieved the numbers. :( I want everyone protected not just middle class white women and kids who unintentionally promote these dreadful policies.

[Just5minswithDacre]

(It's not linked to the EU ref, it's linked to Theresa May's recent comments.)

You make a good point OP.

Unquestioning acceptance has been confused with inclusion, maybe? I think it's largely driven by fear of not being inclusive enough, PC enough.

[Just5minswithDacre]

There was a very compelling article a few months ago by a northern British Muslim woman about her experience in the 80s and 90s, as she grew up, of feeling abandoned to the internal politics of her 'community' by the British political mainstream that she felt owed her protection from certain cultural practices. I can't find it at the moment. I'll look properly tomorrow.

[MorrisZapp]

I don't understand this. In the UK, UK law applies. Are women choosing to deal with criminal/legal issues within their church as opposed to approaching the police or a solicitor?

[bkgirl]

Morris, from what I hear they simply do not have a choice - community pressure is too much. :(

[Atenco]

I'm afraid your ignorance about Islam is appalling, as is your prejudice. Child sexual abuse is a crime unfortunately committed in all areas of society that has often not been taken seriously or when the perpetrators are powerful, the facts have been suppressed. You, of course, want to not only give the impression that is exclusively a Muslim problem but also that it is approved by Muslims in general. As for forced marriage and fgm, they are totally against Sharia law, but whatever.

[venusinscorpio]

It's a parallel quasi-legal system. Women are systematically disadvantaged by it. And many women have few "choices".

[venusinscorpio]

Atenco, I don't get that from the OP's post. Why do you think she is prejudiced and her concerns aren't legitimate? Why are you trying to shut her down?

[venusinscorpio]

I think Dacre makes a very good point about unquestioning (I'd add blind) acceptance being confused with inclusion.

[mathanxiety]

Morris: Yes. And while I rarely see eye to eye with bkgirl, I agree that Sharia is a threat to women, and that women in Muslim communities are pressured to turn to Sharia courts.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Sharia_Council

www.economist.com/node/17249634 'Sharia in the West: Whose Law Counts Most?'

[bkgirl]

No Atenco, I have not said that AT ALL. My first words were
"Having a catholic background and knowing how the church was a positively evil force in the past, I really detest religion getting together with the law. It was accepted at the time as being the right thing to do despite being obviously totally abhorrant. "
I have expressly referred to abuse in the catholic church. I think child abuse goes across every community and every "class". My point was about religion or culture interfering in of any type in law. I just oppose any groups using their influence to conceal it. Ireland has had a dreadful history of the state/law being dominated by the catholic church and what it did to women and children was horrific but somehow accepted in society as OK.
The FGM one I was shocked at last year when there were pc mutterings to somehow accept it as part of a culture. It totally incensed me. I am passionate about protecting all children - not just white children who live in North London and whose mums shop in Waitrose! It does happen here. Why is it swept under the carpet? I don't give a toss if its a freemason, an archbishop, or ANYONE ELSE from any faith or indeed no faith.
My main point was about sharia not giving equal rights to women and yet they have to choose it regardless.
Did you actually read the link?
//www.secularism.org.uk/blog/2012/03/sharia-law-and-middle-class-feminism
I don't know of any other legal systems that have been brought to the UK and in active use but if I knew of one and in ANY way I thought they were discriminating against women or children - I would be very annoyed and yes would try to do something - JUST as I HAVE done with a cardinal who covered up for a serial abuser in Northern Ireland.

[bkgirl]

Re Forced marriage and FGM etc the point was that there is a noticeable silence from the pc right on brigade when it comes to these matters. There is a constant deference to culture when it should be about the law of the country. The ladies that do something about it are generally in the girls own communities and have to face it largely alone at dreadful risk and isolation. They are INCREDIBLY brave and have my total admiration.

[OlennasWimple]

I read T May's statement about religion providing guidance to people as a) genuine acknowledgement that religion can be an important source of advice and comfort (she is a vicar's daughter, after all); and b) almost obligatory in handling terms before setting out plans that will be seen as an attack on a religion

[bkgirl]

Fair enough Olennas :) No problem at all with anyone finding comfort in religion .
Been reading around this and found this article which is interesting. I totally agree with their opinion about Femen . I could never figure out how that helped.
www.middleeasteye.net/columns/secular-feminism-silencing-islamic-feminism-465194054
Still think women should support our sisters though albeit in a way that works for them.

[supersoftcuddlytoys]

OP are you on Twitter? If so might I suggest you follow Ayaan Hirsi Ali, if you are not already?

She writes brilliantly and extensively on the subject of 'Why Don't Western Feminists Fight for Muslim Women'?

[MorrisZapp]

I'm the other way round, I think. I'm appalled by the sexism entrenched in organised religions, and most of all by Islam which seems particularly regressive.

But I've found that Muslim women on here do not want to be 'saved' by non muslims, and that they find my concerns patronising and prejudiced. The message seems to be 'I'm not oppressed thanks, off you fuck' .

So it's hard to know how to stand with women who think their religion us non sexist and that it's a sign of ignorance, bigotry and racism to suggest that it is.

[venusinscorpio]

I don't want to "save" Muslim women. They are free to make personal choices which others see as bad for society, as are we all. And I am free to point out misogyny when I see it and ask that the authorities try to ensure that it is not forced on those who can't or don't make these choices. You might find the women most in need of rights and support are the ones who aren't commenting on mumsnet.

[MorrisZapp]

I'm certain you're right. Most MNers are educated and have choices. But I feel it's a no win situation as a non religious white person. I am open to accusations of bigotry either way. And pointing out the failings within a religion is troublesome for outsiders. Muslims and catholics alike on here get very angry about what they think is prejudice and ignorance.

I'd love to stand up for oppressed women inside the cage of religious fervour, but I don't know how.

[SomethingOnce]

Morris, you've articulated brilliantly what I've been feeling for a very long time. Thank you.