Parliamentary motion tabled for second referendum

[CaptainBrickbeard]

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/30/second-eu-referendum-pull-us-out-of-fire-make-happen?client=safari#

I strongly suspect my link doesn't work, sorry if that's the case. There is a Guardian article by Geraint Davies, Swansea MP explaining the motion he and David Lammy have tabled with regards to a second referendum, this time on the exit package.

The proposition is that a second referendum is held, giving voters the choice between the exit package available to us and staying in the UK. Effectively, this is the same referendum but this time without the two central lies of the Leave campaign - the £350 million to the NHS and the control of immigration. In terms of the Remain 'Project Fear', people could take into account the actual economic effects which have already been felt. It would be a far more informed choice.

I don't feel that this option challenges democracy in the way that some people felt another identical rederendum would. My anger at the result is based on the two fundamental untruths at the heart of the Leave campaign which I feel misled an enormous amount of voters. Who knows how a referendum without these lies would go? According to MN Leave voters, those two lies had no effect on their decision to vote Leave - if that is reflected around the country, the result will be the same. Personally, I could accept that as fair whereas I cannot accept this result when it appears to me that so many people believed they were voting to control immigration and free an enormous sum of money for the NHS, neither of which is at all true. It would be interesting to see if a second chance galvanised young voters or if they remained apathetic. Would turnout be higher or would it drop? Which way would the undecided or non voters go if they voted again? Are there really over a million Leavers with buyers' remorse or is the country full of Regretful Remainers berating themselves for cowardice? Would this deepens the horrific divisions - the racism, the ageism, the classism etc that we've seen?

I've set my stall out numerous times on here, I'm an angry Remainer and I want this second referendum to go ahead, I believe that once people know there will be freedom of movement and no extra money for the NHS even if we leave that an awful lot of them will not want to leave anymore. I an furious that Leave were able to make these claims, backtrack immediately and not be held to account. That to me is the attack on democracy, not a second referendum.

Whether Brexit happens or not, I think we are in for a huge amount of civil unrest, deep anger and disappointment, political turmoil - this whole campaign has been bitter, divisive and deeply felt for a huge range of reasons so I think we are in for hard times ahead whether we exit the EU or a way is found to stay.

If you want this referendum to go ahead, write to your MP to tell them to support the motion.

[twofingerstoGideon]

clickable link

[CaptainBrickbeard]

Thanks, I'm hopeless!

[SaltyMyDear]

Sounds hopeful.

Does anyone who understands this stuff knows what has to happen for this proposal, this 2nd referendum, to happen?

[CaptainBrickbeard]

MPs have to back it, so we need to encourage our MPs to sign.

[Thegirlinthefireplace]

Hope not. I'm a staunch remainder and have absolutely no faith that a sensible decision would be made on this by the public.

[wowfudge]

Interesting - fingers crossed.

[twofingerstoGideon]

Thanks for this. I am also furious. I can't understand how people thought a Brexit could be anything but disruptive and problematic. We've had people saying they voted leave for such a diverse range of reasons, eg:

• they don't like the 'democratic deficit' of the EU Parliament
  
• they want 'sovereignty'
  
• they want more money spent on the NHS
  
• they don't like the European Arrest Warrant
  
• they want all immigrants to leave (these people have really found their voice post-Brexit)
  
• they want better controlled immigration
  
• they want to 'get their country back' (whatever that means)
  
• they want 'less regulation'
  
• they want better trade with emerging economies
  

In other words, there are some rational reasons, but there are also some very abstract ones, like 'getting our country back' and some very distasteful ones (all foreigners out!) From this pick-and-mix of reasons, how will 'leavers' formulate a plan that will suit all of them? They won't. There will be endless bickering about the detail or they will have to massively compromise. Meanwhile, the rest of us suffer.

[MotherOfBleach]

Hope not. I'm a staunch remainder and have absolutely no faith that a sensible decision would be made on this by the public.

I feel the same. People still have no clue how much they've been lied to or how badly fucked we are right now. It's like the collective are sticking their fingers in their ears and singing lalalala whilst trying to get everyone who can see how fucked we are to close our eyes, hope for the least worst outcome and join them in their sing-song.

But in a 2nd referendum the students might be shocked into voting en masse, Scotland too, that could sway the results.

[CaptainBrickbeard]

thegirl, you are right - I think this was a stupid thing to put to a referendum in the first place so putting it out there again doesn't necessarily seem like a great idea. But I do think it has to be made absolutely clear that Leavers aren't going to get what they thought they were voting for and I am hopeful that would swing it - but of course, it might not.

[MimsyPimsy]

I don't understand any of it, but surely we have to do the Article 50 business, leave, then sort out the trade deals, in that order, according to the EU. Then when the deal is clear, have a referendum, perhaps decide the deal means it's worse out than in, so vote Remain, but it will be too late.

[Livinthedream1]

If this goes ahead and a remain vote wins do you see the markets recovering and businesses staying put it will they just expect another ref at some point and therefore go now before it all happens again. The EU would obviously never take us seriously again but is there anything they could do to prevent us having a seat at the table and a vote? We have not left officially and the ref was not legally binding but the world is moving on with is being out

[MotherOfBleach]

If this goes ahead and a remain vote wins do you see the markets recovering and businesses staying put it will they just expect another ref at some point and therefore go now before it all happens again.

I think it would depend upon by how much Remain won. If it was a small margin we are still fucked, people and the markets will still see us as unstable and chaotic but we'd be less fucked than we are now. It would settle and we'd recover once it was shown that we are in and staying in. Whereas out and staying out can only leave us worse off in the long run.

The EU would obviously never take us seriously again but is there anything they could do to prevent us having a seat at the table and a vote?

Yes, they can effectively put 'naughty' countries in the corner. We'd lose our vote for a time but keep our funding and trade agreements. Out means we lose all of it - forever.

[purits]

This is classic EU. Give people a vote ... and make them keep voting until they give the correct answer.

[EnthusiasmDisturbed]

I thought David Lammy wanted MP's to vote to block us leaving

Why didn't he protest about the referendum being given in the first place as he obviously feels the public are unable to make decision for themselves

His arrogance is utterly appalling and it highlights just how out of touch politicians are

[AndNowItsSeven]

That would be a fair outcome, if remain lost that referendum although I would be very disappointed I wouldn't feel angry like I do know.

[PigletWasPoohsFriend]

There won't be a second referendum.

Majority of MPs have said they will stand by the results of it.

It isn't the best of 3.

I was a remain voter.

[EnthusiasmDisturbed]

I voted to remain too

I just want the two main parties to get on with the work they should be doing and quickly sort out their leaderships

Although a labour voter I am not in favour of a GE soon we just need to get moving forward there won't be another referendum what politicians really need to learn from this is that they can no longer afford to be so out of touch with those that vote for them

[CaptainBrickbeard]

It's not an identical referendum though - it's asking people to choose between the exit package we can actually have or staying in. It's not restating the same question - it's asking people if they still want to leave under the conditions with which we will actually leave rather than what the Leave campaign pretended we would have.

[PigletWasPoohsFriend]

No one knows what that will be though. It could be 2 or 3 years down the line!

[EnthusiasmDisturbed]

But that is going to take some time in the meantime we are left in limbo and for how long?, party infighting will carry on longer it's all to unsettling to the economy and for all of us

[JassyRadlett]

This is classic EU. Give people a vote ... and make them keep voting until they give the correct answer.

An EDM in the sovereign, democratically elected UK Parliament is 'classic EU making them keep voting'?

Hmm. I guess some didn't vote because of sovereignty.

[EnthusiasmDisturbed]

I feel drained after a week of this and many people are expressing the same feeling a year on I doubt the country will be any mood to have more elections or another referendum

MP's can work at getting the best deal for us and this is what hey should be working on now

[Quodlibet]

I think a second vote would also be influenced by the haemmorhaging (sp?!) of bravado/leadership on the Leave side too. There's no way Boris could front a second Leave campaign. This might have the negative effect of pushing Farage even further into the limelight?

[AdrenalineFudge]

There's no way we'll have a second referendum. I think despite most MPs opposing leave there's been a lot of talk about 'respecting the will of the British people'.

purits You're sort of right but in the votes (I assume) you're referring to it was countries voting on treaties, not to actually leave the EU - so a different kettle of fish all together.

I don't think people understand how far up shit creek we're going to be. Thats said, there's a school of thought that says although things will be shit for a while - it's not the doomsday scenario that everyone's making it out to be.
I'm on the fence with this.

[EnthusiasmDisturbed]

I am not sure a second referendum would sway so many voters to change their mind that it would change the result

It might make more people turn out to vote and it could also stir up feelings of resentment for not accepting the first result and those who didn't vote would in a second referendum

And then there is referendum apathy