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So this guy spent weeks reading and fact checking everything re Brexit

(91 Posts)
nearlyhellokitty Wed 22-Jun-16 19:30:37 Basically he expected to find equivalent bullshit but discovered that "Remain appear to be telling the truth, Leave don’t." if you don't believe me look through his stuff.

"I’ve now spent the last three weeks fact-checking every detail on Brexit that I possibly could.

I’ve read 90-page government reports on my way to a wedding. I’ve hacked through academic analyses of the EU when I really should have been promoting my Virtual Reality game. I’ve treated myself to a fun Google search for the accounts of pro-Remain activists to check that they’re not biased. And so on.

At every single turn, I found that the Leave campaign’s arguments were founded on lies. Sorry, it’s as simple as that. I wish it wasn’t.
They lie about how much money we spend on the EU. I’d love to say “they’re misinformed”, or “they exaggerate”, but they don’t. They lie. Outright.

They lie about the business case for Leave. I still have found absolutely no support whatsoever for the figures that are confidently quoted here.
They lie about the state of democracy in the EU. The more I investigate the EU, the more I find out it’s fairer and better set up than the UK’s government. Just today I discovered that the European Commission’s role in legislation is actually far more balanced than I thought.
And the Leave campaign lie a lot more. I haven’t had time to post all the mini-fact-checks I’ve found. As just one example, the Vote Leave website claims

Because of free movement laws, the UK cannot test every EU doctor operating in the UK for whether they can speak English

As proof, they link to an article in the Guardian about a horrible accident thanks to a doctor not understanding English. In that article, it explicitly states:

The GMC, which registers doctors and licenses them to work, has been able to check EU medics’ English since last summer…

In other words, Leave’s statement is absolutely untrue, and that’s proved by an article they themselves use as “proof” of their untrue statement.
I haven’t had time to fact-check every single Leave claim, and some, like the claim that leaving “will make Britain Great again”, aren’t possible to fact-check.

But every single Leave claim I’ve checked has turned out not to be exaggeration, not to be well-meaning misunderstanding, but to be obviously false.

Remain’s campaign has been criticised for being dull, being negative, and being led by people who are thoroughly disliked.

All of those claims are entirely reasonable. Personally I intensely dislike both Cameron and Osborne. I’m about as much of a fan of the current UK government as I am of bowel cancer.

But every claim of theirs I’ve checked — even the ones that had pro-Remain friends shouting about how over the top and ridiculous they were has turned out to be more or less sound."

nearlyhellokitty Wed 22-Jun-16 20:03:30

This is really what I have found:

"At every single turn, I found that the Leave campaign’s arguments were founded on lies. Sorry, it’s as simple as that. I wish it wasn’t.
They lie about how much money we spend on the EU. I’d love to say “they’re misinformed”, or “they exaggerate”, but they don’t. They lie. Outright."

Photosythesis Wed 22-Jun-16 20:57:41

Same here, though I think remain has occasionally been disingenuous / inacurrate / exaggerated. But utterly dwarfed by the scale and perniciousness, willful disceptions from the Vote Leave side.

nearlyhellokitty Wed 22-Jun-16 21:08:15

I am just amazed at how Leave continue to wilfully lie and people don't appear to care?

GhostofFrankGrimes Wed 22-Jun-16 21:13:47

Some people have prejudices - so fact is irrelevant. Sadly.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine Wed 22-Jun-16 21:20:06

This seems and appropriate place to drop in these links:

Nissan sues Leave campaign

Chalalala Wed 22-Jun-16 21:23:14

Leave continue to wilfully lie and people don't appear to care?

It'll become known in the history books as the "Trump effect"

nearlyhellokitty Wed 22-Jun-16 21:48:58

The Trump effect.... let's hope it's a phase...

This role total disregard of fact based research is so worrying.

Chalalala Wed 22-Jun-16 21:58:12

This guy thinks it's here to stay for a while... really worrying, indeed

Rattitude Wed 22-Jun-16 22:10:17

Very interesting link, Chalala.

Here is an extract from it:

'A healthy skepticism toward institutions is not the worst trait in the world; indeed, blind allegiance to authority probably leads to far worse outcomes. There’s skepticism, however, and then there’s willful ignorance. Both Brexit and the Trump campaign seem to exist because of the latter impulse.'

We have witnessed this on here quite a bit over the past week or so.

FranHastings Wed 22-Jun-16 22:14:05

Every time I've pointed out this sort of thing to a Leave voter, I've been met with 'it's scaremongering', 'it won't happen, everyone loves us! ',' everything will be fine' or 'load of nonsense, I remember how it used to be!', 'it is true, I know it!'. (Some) People genuinely don't want to know.

nearlyhellokitty Wed 22-Jun-16 22:26:28

Surely if leaves case was strong enough they wouldn't have to lie... right?
So that worries me even more.

GraceGrape Wed 22-Jun-16 22:40:19

I can't believe how well the Leave campaign has managed to peddle its misinformation as fact. I try not to get involved in Facebook discussions about the referendum but twice in the last 24 hours I've felt compelled to correct people who quote the £350 million a week "fact" and the UK is always outvoted by the EU "fact". I find it alarming and incredible that so many people just accept these on face value and will be voting to make such an important decision based on this. I know some people just hear what they want to hear but I have met some genuinely undecided people who have been swayed by what are, in effect, lies. And there will be absolutely no come-back for the leave campaign for spreading mistruths.

RoseDeGambrinus Wed 22-Jun-16 22:54:25

I was just checking to see if anyone had shared this - it's quite startling. Bumping for those who are still undecided and understandably have been assuming that both campaigns' assertions have some basis in fact.

eyebrowse Wed 22-Jun-16 23:20:15

Bumping again this should be the only thread on the EU referendum

Winterbiscuit Thu 23-Jun-16 01:37:07

The Remain campaign hasn't been as honest as it could be. Osborne's £4300, claims that a "reformed EU" is possible, and Tusk's end of Western Civilisation for starters.

Ankleswingers Thu 23-Jun-16 01:38:55

Oh ffs. All this scaremongering.

mamamea Thu 23-Jun-16 05:02:36

'Fact check' seems to be the modern way to create a totally biased website and pretend it's unimpeachable truth.

I just read a couple of 'fact checks' on Hillary Clinton's child rape case. The, er, 'facts', were totally different between the two.

This one fails on item one when it says that £350m/week is a lie. It is not. Here's an accurate summary:

It's a massive scam to dress up political opinion as 'fact', when it's nothing of the kind.

"They lie about the state of democracy in the EU. The more I investigate the EU, the more I find out it’s fairer and better set up than the UK’s government. "

Come on, fuck off. Are you really claiming that blatantly biased opinion is fact.

Fact check my arse.

And 'weeks'? Seriously? It would take about an hour to come up with that propaganda screed.

Globetrotter100 Thu 23-Jun-16 06:28:04

"They lie about the state of democracy in the EU. The more I investigate the EU, the more I find out it’s fairer and better set up than the UK’s government. "

Take a moment to consider the daily impacts of policies 100% under control of the UK government (I'm assuming this is what people mean when they use the term "democracy"). A small number from the top of my head which have hit headlines of the last couple of years:

1. Right to buy = massive social housing sell off with no replacement at expense of the needy
2. Years of BTL tax breaks pumping up house prices at the expense of young and poor (only recently starting to reduce)
3. Big fat tax rebates for rich pension schemes (only recently reduced but still fabulous)
4. No capital gains tax for non residents out of UK for 5 tax years (only recently eliminated...was particularly great for non residents in the London property market)
5. The huge pressure of SATS on small kids on top of ever changing curriculum that still delivers rubbish maths outcomes relative to rest of developed world. But everybody gets A* grades. WTAF?
6. NHS - not stopping health care tourism the way others in EU do then constant whines all round
7. NHS - repeatedly diverting funding that could be used on healthcare for just about everything else imaginable
8. Utter neglect of infrastructural expansion to accompany population increase (unlike any other EU country with significant population growth)
9. University tuition fees (you do know that's not mainstream in EU, right)
10. Utter lack of oversight of financial system leading to phenomenal bank bailouts at expense of UK taxpayer

There have been years of treating the voting public like fools by blaming UK government's gross mismanagement on the EU and hoping they believe it to avoid accountability and change. Unfortunately that seemed to have worked.

But nothing on that list has anything to do with the EU. It is 100% "UK sovereign democracy". Every time I read a Brexiter talking about "taking back control" I shiver. Because the UK has 100% control of all the above areas...and where this control has been applied by the democratically elected UK government....well, it's not been working out so well...

It's possibly one of the reasons other EU countries are a bit confused by this referendum.

mamamea Thu 23-Jun-16 06:48:58

Pretty much all of those things were caused by the last Labour government, which also precipitated the immigration crisis which has brought BREXIT to the brink of victory.

I'm not sure, however, how criticising domestic governments invalidates any points about being ruled from Europe.

bilbul Thu 23-Jun-16 06:52:42

The £350 million 'fact' isn't far off. It's something like £190 million instead. And yes, that's from actual primary sources.

mamamea Thu 23-Jun-16 06:58:19

Nope, it's an actual fact. £350 million sent to the EU.

They then spend some of it in the UK, but it's at their behest, not ours.

Globetrotter100 Thu 23-Jun-16 07:04:05

No, they were not all caused by the labour government although some certainly were. I'm a Tory, by the way.

The point is that when successive UK government's have had 100% control of policies, the mismanaged outcomes which I see being repeatedly brought up as reasons to leave the EU (many indirectly by blaming immigration for house prices, school places, NHS funding gap etc etc) then people would be wise to consider whether the Leave slogan of "taking back control" really will deliver a United Kingdom that is better or worse than today...based on history, it seems rather unlikely to me.

And if anyone is voting for change away from being supposedly "ruled from Europe* then I am expecting they'd need to be very happy to be ruled by the alternative. I hope that explains my point a bit more clearly.

MangosteenSoda Thu 23-Jun-16 07:06:24

The leave campaign has been on a single handed mission to redefine the word 'fact'.

YesThisIsMe Thu 23-Jun-16 07:09:42

It's not a sodding fact. The U.K. rebate means that we only send about 250 million out, and then we get about 110 million back in EU spending to the poorer regions, farming and fishery support etc.

If they said we send 250 then that would be true but misleading. 350 is a flat out lie - it's been pointed out many many times and they've just stuck with it.

And as for a team headed up by the notoriously pro privatisation Gove and Farage claiming they'd spend it all on healthcare....

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