Do you think remainers saying we need future EU reform in the future are dishonest?(15 Posts)
Jeremy Corbyn had an interview on Sky last night where he was representing remain but went on the list the many faults of the EU e.g. TTIP, pandering to big business & said if we vote to stay in that in the future the UK will be able to get more reform & end all of these faults, the Labour party has also recently said if we stay in in the future we can reform EU free movement to limit numbers (that will never happen)
Is he being dishonest, we just had a renegotiation with a threat to leave, what are the chances we will get better more fundamental reform in the future if we vote to stay in particularly as the UK can just be outvoted by the Eurozone
I don't think he is being dishonest, but I do think he is being unrealistic.
There is no evidence that the EU is capable of reform and their response to problems like our referendum is more integration not less. The trouble is there is no appetite for that anywhere in Europe.
Everyone knows that the Euro debt crisis in Southern Europe won't go away without either fiscal integration or leaving the Euro to enable countries like Greece to devalue their currencies. However no steps have been made in either direction. There is a stalemate and the result is hugely damaging to the quality of life of millions of people.
I think some of them are living in cloud cuckoo land, as evidenced by some of the stuff they come out with or read off teleprompters.
There is no possibility of reforming the EU - the only solution is to leave.
This piece by Labour Leave's press officer outlines the situation perfectly:
The EU isn't perfect but you can get stuff done as Hugh Fearnly guy showed with discards, But we got to have decent MEPs, sending useless disinterested people unsurprisingly doesn't.
JC is in a tight spot. How would he vote if he was still on the backbenches, having been vociferously eurosceptic all his life (all those speeches have mysteriously disappeared!)? He can't go against the Parliamentary Labour Party or he will be no longer be leader....so luke warm support with some wishy washy ideas for reform which are never going to happen -
Cameron couldn't get meaningful reform before we started this referendum - does anyone seriously think the EU will reform anything after the UK, one of the big contributors to the EU budget, has just voted to Remain?!! Of course not.....it's business as usual......until the euro collapses which it will (spend 5 mins reading about the economies of Southern Europe and get ready for bail out 3 for Greece, and saving the Italian Banks over the Summer)
Here's a tweet from Marcus A Roberts (Fabian society) to show that it will be an uphill battle to get any meaningful reform:
the German govt minister who told us "whatever the outcome of Brexit the answer will be More Europe".
I don't think Remainers are being dishonest to believe reform from within is possible, just naive.
If we vote to remain, there will be a lot of hot air from Brussels about 'listening to concerns', 'addressing issues raised' - but always a few years down the line, after they've continued on the same course long enough to weather whatever present crisis they point to as an excuse.
I was just reading Le Monde about this, they're having a "Brexit" discussion day. Someone asked if a Remain vote would strengthen Britain's position in the EU, and the French expert's opinion is that it would, especially if it's a clear Remain. This is purely aimed at a French audience by the way, so it's not just hot air blown for British voters.
Si le "Remain" l'emporte, le Royaume-Uni sera-t-il plus fort au sein de l'UE ?
Cécile Ducourtieux: "La réponse est oui, à condition que le 'Remain' l'emporte franchement, et qu'il y ait un très fort plébiscite de Cameron et de son agenda pro-européen. Si le 'Remain' l'emporte à 56%, le message sera très, très clair et, comme Cameron est le seul leader politique qui a eu le courage de poser cette question existentielle à ses concitoyens, il arrivera à Bruxelles avec très certainement un très, très fort pouvoir de négociation.
Il obtiendra très certainement ce qui a été négocié entre lui et les dirigeants européens en février 2016, lors d'un sommet au cours duquel David Cameron avait obtenu des dérogations à la non-discrimination des citoyens européens, c'est-à-dire que le Royaume-Uni puisse priver de droits sociaux des citoyens de l'Union en Angleterre, même s'ils travaillent. Ce n'est pour l'instant pas possible. Londres aura aussi une forme de droit d'intervention sur les décisions des pays de l'eurozone. Il pourra être consulté systématiquement à chaque décision de l'eurozone. Il obtiendra aussi que les parlements nationaux aient le droit de s'opposer à une législation européenne."
Die Zeit has a big piece on the future of the EU. They have Martin Schulz, the EU parliament president, a German no less, saying that since the Eurozone crisis and the crisis, the end of the EU is no longer as unthinkable as it was once. It would be a mistake to think that the EU is much loved in likes of Germany - you have the likes of Alternative fur Deutschland winning seats in the regional parliaments based on anti-EU principles.
it is very true that the EU is being increasingly criticised on the continent.
but a mistake the Brexit side often makes, is to assume that their reasons to dislike the EU are the same reasons other countries criticise it.
in France at least there is a strong left-wing tendency to regret that the EU abandoned its earlier lofty aims of union and solidarity, in favour of a neo-liberal, free-markets project. That's the exact opposite of what most British eurosceptics feel.
(there is also a strong nationalistic eurosceptic element in France, to be fair)
Here's a quote from Jeremy Corbyn today from the BBC website:
"We believe to remain will help us to be able to reform the European Union and will be right for people in this country... We can make this country and the world a better place if we work with other people."
and here is the response from Mr Juncker:
"British voters have to know there will be no kind of any negotiation. We have concluded a deal with the prime minister. He got the maximum he could receive, and we gave the maximum we could give, so there will be no kind of renegotiation."
Looks like we're headed to ever closer union!
This is the biggest lie of all. There is no reformed EU. Yes it will change but for the worst. It will be more of the same. More bullying. The EU bullies are already out in force threatening the UK about what will happen if we vote to leave. We will suffer they say. Thought they were meant to beour friends.
except that, among the "maximum we can give", there's an exemption from ever closer union.
Don't think we should be comparing liars to decide how to vote. Boris and Gove are, at best disingenuous spinners. Vote Remain because it means stability and peace. Or less instability and less upheaval however you want to look at it.
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