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11% of doctors and 4% of nurses from EU + Norway, Iceland & Liechtenstein

(59 Posts)
nearlyhellokitty Tue 14-Jun-16 09:03:07

theconversation.com/the-truth-about-migrants-and-the-nhs-60908 - Plus:

Migrants that become “ordinarily resident” in the UK are entitled to use the NHS on the same terms as people born here. But they are less likely than the native population to do so. People who migrate tend to be younger and healthier than native populations. Older people and those with disabilities and severe illness are less likely to move, apart from in extreme circumstances. This underpins a longstanding epidemiological phenomenon, called the “healthy migrant effect”.

This is backed up by evidence from NHS data. A University of Oxford study using local authority immigration data and NHS hospital data found that areas with more immigration had lower waiting times for outpatient referrals. On average, a 10% increase in the share of migrants living in a local authority reduced waiting times by nine days. The authors find no evidence that immigration affects waiting times in A&E and in elective care.

Migrants are less likely to be ill, and also more likely to be working. The Institute for Public Policy Research recently reported that EU migrants have higher employment rates than UK nationals. The employment rate of UK nationals is 74%, slightly below the 75% for migrants from EU15 countries (those in the EU before 2004). Employment rates for migrants from newer member states is 83 per cent, although they tend to be in lower-skilled and lower-paid work.

If migrants are working, they’ll be paying income tax and making national insurance contributions. These are the sources of NHS funding. This means that resident migrants are likely to be paying their share towards the costs of the NHS.

So immigrants to the UK are more likely to be healthy and more likely to be working. The opposite may be the case for emigrants from the UK. Around 1.2m Britons live in other EU countries – mainly in Spain, Ireland, France and Germany. While some of these emigrants have moved to work, many have chosen to retire overseas. And retirees are more likely to make use of the health system, simply because they are older. On balance, then, the UK benefits from “healthy immigrants”, while exporting “unhealthy emigrants” for other health systems to deal with.

A4Document Tue 14-Jun-16 09:11:13

"People who migrate tend to be younger and healthier than native populations."

And then they get old like the rest of us.

nearlyhellokitty Tue 14-Jun-16 09:12:12

after they've spent their lives contributing

A4Document Tue 14-Jun-16 09:25:23

Yes of course. But the information that "Migrants are less likely to be ill, and also more likely to be working" makes it sound as if they are somehow inherently healthier than anyone else, when it's actually age-dependent. And older UK residents who move overseas have spent all their lives contributing here too.

nearlyhellokitty Tue 14-Jun-16 09:28:45

Not sure what we're arguing about ... yes it's age dependent, but it goes against some of the rumours flying around about NHS strains due to immigration... etc etc.

Tuiles Tue 14-Jun-16 09:31:36

And we can just keep doing this ad infinitum, with no obvious planning for extra facilities and infrastructure? Services are being withdrawn, the NHS cut to the bone - yet the obvious answer is to add more migrants because you cut waiting times if you do confused

nearlyhellokitty Tue 14-Jun-16 09:33:06

amazing how you get that from the article tuiles when it's really not saying that.

nearlyhellokitty Tue 14-Jun-16 09:34:21

it shows that migrants contribute more to the NHS than they take

Tuiles Tue 14-Jun-16 09:44:56

Yes but they are not building more hospitals and surgeries are they. By your story the way to fix the NHS is to keep adding migrants - soon it won't even need funding, especially if we keep all the pesky diseased citizens out hmm

TheAlchemist101 Tue 14-Jun-16 09:45:13

Health tourism by EU nationals is not a myth I work in a medical speciality in a NHS hospital and over the last 6 months we have had to create an additional clinic for EU migrants' children from poorer eastern countries who have a chronic condition requiring life-long treatment. One of the treatments we offer cost £250,000 per child per year. Apparently most of them were advised by their doctors in their own countries to move to the UK as we offer the most up to date treatment for free. I have heard the same thing happening from colleagues who work in other medical specialities.
People from poorer countries tend to suffer more ill health and will need more healthcare such as in the case of maternity services where a higher percentage of migrants require specialist antenatal care due to complications in pregnancy.

JassyRadlett Tue 14-Jun-16 09:47:42

And we can just keep doing this ad infinitum, with no obvious planning for extra facilities and infrastructure? Services are being withdrawn, the NHS cut to the bone - yet the obvious answer is to add more migrants because you cut waiting times if you do

Well, no, the obvious answer is to use some of the windfall you've got from EU immigration to increase service provision. And you'd still be ahead.

On the point about migrants ageing - many return to their home countries. So they pay taxes without us having had the expense of educating them, and we'll be spared the cost of retirement for some of them.

Meanwhile, the biggest pressures on the NHS are totally unrelated to immigration. People are living much longer, with all the health issues that come with old age at the same time as our demographic bulge hits retirement, plus a rampant and expensive obesity epidemic. In the short to medium term we actually need more healthy young taxpayers to help manage this situation. If they are more likely to leave before they too become expensive then that's even better.

In pure economic terms it's a pretty good deal.

DorynownotFloundering Tue 14-Jun-16 09:51:02

NHS funding is a national issue though, not up to the EU. The lack of investment by successive governments and the increasing imbalance of pen pushers vs clinical staff has pushed the service to breaking point not immigrants.

JassyRadlett Tue 14-Jun-16 09:51:17

Yes but they are not building more hospitals and surgeries are they.

Yes, quite an effective confidence trick, isn't it, to get people to blame immigrants for public spending choices?

nearlyhellokitty Tue 14-Jun-16 09:55:43

TheAlchemist if that is true still does not affect the overall figures / concept of the healthy migrant effect. There's a very detailed and interesting discussion here: www.euro.who.int/__data/assets/pdf_file/0008/80468/Eurohealth13_1.pdf

the 'migrants' that need extra help in pregnancy - that is a very broad brush covering all migrants

The NHS can recoup costs from EU tourists.

unexpsoc Tue 14-Jun-16 10:00:06

"By your story the way to fix the NHS is to keep adding migrants - soon it won't even need funding, especially if we keep all the pesky diseased citizens out"

Tuiles - have you ever wondered, if migrants contribute more and take less out of the NHS, where is that money going? Because we have had warning about migration since about 1995 - but the NHS has been cut for the last 8years - since the credit crunch. (Hint - the corporation tax in the UK is heading down to 18%).

EnthusiasmDisturbed Tue 14-Jun-16 10:41:13

I work in mental health and dv

Again those that experience first hand will be debunked by stats and reports

We are seeing issues iy is not the cause of the nhs being near breaking point no but it is adding to the pressure the money simply isn't there to treat more people

The problem with report and stats is often that are looking at a particular area when widening the area it gets complex and you won't end up with one answer. A good simple example might be showing that x% of women access domestic violence support yet the number attmitted to hospital with injuries are often higher but can't be added as they are not accessing support so reports that come out can only estimate numbers that have only attended hospital

Of course they are useful in planning but you always need to read a number of reports that often contradicte each other

BritBrit Tue 14-Jun-16 10:51:15

Under a controlled immigration system you can still let in skilled workers such as doctors and nurses you just have the power to stop unskilled workers who are a burden to come. There is also another issue, the UK government turned down 80,000 Brits a year from nurse training because it's cheaper to import immigrant worker, surely we should be training Brit

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2878312/80-000-UK-students-told-t-train-nurse-Thousands-t-courses-despite-four-five-new-NHS-workers-foreign.html

TheAlchemist101 Tue 14-Jun-16 11:01:19

As a practising HCP I'm reflecting my own personal experience of what's happening to the NHS on the frontline. This is my reality and a lot of other people's as well. I work in a large teaching hospital in a major city and the impact of mass migration has stretched services so much that we are barely holding it together. More and more I feel I'm working in the MASH field hospital in a war zone. Patients who are not well and still require medical care are being discharged home because there is someone sicker who needs the bed and we just don't have enough beds / wards / hospitals /doctors/nurses/HCPs.

Both labour and conservative Governments have been unable unwilling to predict the numbers coming into the country and have not prepared for wanted to meet the demand we have now.

In my department we are now treating far more patients than we are funded for and this affects the quality of the service we can offer. There is no additional money for staff/resources on offer so we are lectured about by politicians and managers about how we can work "more efficiently" . In addition we have to pay for interpreters and hold single sex sessions for some migrants all of which eat into our healthcare budget.

Add in more migrants from poorer countries such as Albania, Kosovo, Turkey etc then you can forget having a NHS free at the point of use.

TooMuchCoffeeMakesMeZoom Tue 14-Jun-16 11:22:27

I'm in the NHS in a senior position and in our area there are two main pressures: an increasing number of frail elderly with multiple co-morbidities and obesity/diabetes. These pressures are combined with massive reductions in funding. Immigration is irrelevant to our overall budgetary pressures, apart from as a source of healthy, young educated labour. Which means less money spent on locums and agency staff.

Of course we should be training more people BritBrit but that's a repeated national failure by the NHS under successive governments and utterly, utterly unrelated to our membership of the EU. And a consequence of our own educated, healthy, young professionals being able to ship out and work in countries with better functioning health services where they are not stretched to breaking point every single day.

Limer Tue 14-Jun-16 11:34:35

nearlyhellokitty that University of Oxford study is absolutely ridiculous. All it's proving is that if you change the demographic of an area by replacing old ill people with young healthy ones, the NHS usage goes down. What about the areas where the old people have moved to?

Very disingenuous also to say that working migrants are paying tax and NI. Yes they are - but how much are they also receiving in benefits?

Thanks for sharing your experiences TheAlchemist101 Good to hear from someone at the sharp end.

Mistigri Tue 14-Jun-16 13:13:16

Immigration is irrelevant to our overall budgetary pressures, apart from as a source of healthy, young educated labour.

Amen.

Lweji Tue 14-Jun-16 13:15:41

Yes but they are not building more hospitals and surgeries are they.

No, just staffing them, at zero cost for the UK government in training.

nearlyhellokitty Tue 14-Jun-16 13:19:06

Limer all studies I've seen show that migrants are net contributors

nearlyhellokitty Tue 14-Jun-16 13:20:04

limer I guess you're also going to look at toomuchcoffee rather than the post which reflects your views?

JassyRadlett Tue 14-Jun-16 13:21:10

Very disingenuous also to say that working migrants are paying tax and NI. Yes they are - but how much are they also receiving in benefits?

There are studies that show overall net contribution of EU immigrants when all aspects are considered - I've posted on other threads you've been on, but they're easy to find online.

Thanks for sharing your experiences TheAlchemist101 Good to hear from someone at the sharp end.

What, TooMuchCoffee doesn't get a thank you? wink

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