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Brexiters and veto lies over Turkey - we need to talk.

(30 Posts)
BreakingDad77 Wed 25-May-16 10:40:21

Penny Mordaunt, the armed forces minister, said the UK “does not” have a veto over the new membership of states such as Turkey – despite it being a key part of the Treaty of the European Union.

So Brexiters can we put turkey to bed now, and even if Europes 'hell bent' on giving them access we can only veto it from being in Europe. If you want a Brexit deal with Europe like Norway you dont get a vote - simples, and you also have free movement of labour.

lavenderdoilly Wed 25-May-16 10:42:18

Good luck op.

BritBrit Wed 25-May-16 12:28:50

The UK does currently have a veto over new members joining. There are however 2 problems. 1st we could have this veto taken away for example we used to have a veto in almost all legal areas but the Lisbon treaty stripped these vetoes & switched to qualified majority voting. 2nd the UK government has never blocked any country joining & both Labour & the Tories strongly support Turkey joining. David Cameron has made numerous speech saying it wants Turkey in

STIDW Wed 25-May-16 13:31:42

Not sure there is evidence Penny Mordaunt was deliberately lying, she may have been misinformed or misunderstood.

Saying the Lisbon Treaty stripped us of vetos makes it sound as though it was something the EU did to us when in fact we agreed to amend the two treaties which form the constitutional basis of the EU. That was to reflect that the EU had grown & it was difficult to get unanimous decisions. It meant moving from unanimity to qualified majority voting in at least 45 policy areas in the Council of Ministers but the veto on countries joining the EU was retained.

Before being admitted a country must comply with conditions set out in the Copenhagen Agreement, in particular completing 33 out of 35 policy chapters. Any state wishing to become a member of the EU must commit to "the values of respect for human dignity, freedom, democracy, equality, the rule of law and respect for human rights, including the rights of persons belonging to minorities" in order to be considered eligible for admission.

Under Labour, the coalition & Tory governments the Uk's foreign policy has been to support Turkey's application to become a member of the EU but there is no time limit. The EU Council agreed to "re-engerise" & "accelerate" the reopening of talks but Turkey's accession to the EU is not on the agenda (Angela Merkel - March 2016). To conclude otherwise without evidence is just speculation/scaremongering.

Chalalala Wed 25-May-16 14:24:52

Not sure there is evidence Penny Mordaunt was deliberately lying, she may have been misinformed or misunderstood.

Not sure which would be worse, to be honest

if it was a lie it was a terribly stupid one, as she was always going to be found out in about 0.3 seconds.

if it was misinformation - that's a really basic mistake to make, when you're a politician campaigning about Europe?.. doesn't exactly inspire confidence in her reasoning or judgement

Banderwassnatched Wed 25-May-16 14:53:36

Why would you want Turkey vetoed?

BreakingDad77 Wed 25-May-16 15:36:10

Why would you want Turkey vetoed?

Its one of Brexits key tenets that millions of turkish are going to come and swamp the NHS etc while the EC ignores all its protocols and fast tracks there application.

Banderwassnatched Wed 25-May-16 16:16:27

I don't care about that. I thought there might be a legitimate reason.

Pangurban1 Wed 25-May-16 16:21:27

Andrew Marr first said 'the British Government does have a veto Turkey joining, so we don't have to let them join" to which she responds "No, it doesn't"

He secondly went on to say that he thought that accession was something each country could veto. She again replied No.

He returned a third time, saying "I'm pretty sure we do have a veto stopping Turkey joining, if we want to. Are you sure that we don't?" She replied 'We haven't.." and continued saying we would be unable to stop Turkey joining.

He tried a fourth time 'But if we don't want Turkey in, we can stop Turkey from coming in". To that she replied "I don't think that the UK will be able stop Turkey joining.

There was no ambiguity in Marr's statements/questions. No judgement or interpretation involved. I don't think a white wash job trying to make out she was really talking about something else will work. She said it on tv, so can't back peddle and say there was a different context to all of the 4 times.

And she had the gall to decry dishonesty in other quarters in the same airing!

Now, she may believe that any UK government wouldn't use the veto. Not the same thing as saying on TV that it doesn't have a veto.

SpringingIntoAction Wed 25-May-16 21:58:36

I love the way that poor Penny is being crucified for a mistake while Cameron can invoke, World War 3, conflict, genocide, house price crashes, food shortages, interest rate hikes, massive job losses, DIY recession and permanent economic disadvantage by leaving the EU.

MuddledMuse Wed 25-May-16 22:11:59

It wasn't a mistake, Springing, it was a lie and she damaged the leave campaign unnecessarily. The truth is that the UK, at the current time, has a veto. What she could have said is that although there is a veto, it is unlikely that any government, and particularly a conservative government (either headed by Cameron or Boris) would use it. Of course, that doesn't help the Brexit cause either.

SpringingIntoAction Wed 25-May-16 22:30:55

I watched the clip. I didn't think she set out to deliberately lie. I think he just fired questions at her and she said No, then in the final exchange she tried to clarify by saying she thought Turkey would get in anyway.

Pangurban1 Wed 25-May-16 23:02:09

All sides are speculating on what could happen in the event of leave or remain.

However, it is a fact and not a matter of speculation that every member state has a veto over an accession state joining. Whether she set out to lie or not, she denied 3 times that the UK have a veto.

If you want to say it is unlikely a UK gov't would use it, then that is what you say. You don't deny the UK has a veto. That is lying.

Andrew Marr , to give him his due, tried repeatedly to clear it up. He gave her quite a few chances to correctly state that the UK does have a veto. She was probably unlucky or didn't have the cop on to not lie on camera because it was caught on tv.

STIDW Thu 26-May-16 12:46:46

Problem with accusations of lying is they often can't be substantiated & degenerate debate.

The definition of a lie is a false statement made with deliberate intent to deceive; an intentional untruth. Clearly Penny Mordaunt was wrong but unless there is evidence of deliberate intent the accusation of lying can't be substantiated.

bananabrain35 Mon 30-May-16 21:01:12

Let's hope the veto works with sexist nutters like this in charge of Turkey (current population 78 million)...

Pangurban1 Mon 30-May-16 21:12:59

If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it probably is a duck. When someone shamelessly relays an untruth 3 times on live TV, I think their neck is fairly brassy and think we would be waiting a while for them to admit their true intent.

SpringingIntoAction Mon 30-May-16 21:50:00

If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it probably is a duck.

If it looks like a Superstate and acts like a Superstate and gains the powers via the Lisbon Treaty that a Superstate requires, it probably is a Superstate.

Pangurban1 Mon 30-May-16 22:24:41

Because it was captured on live Tv, people can see there was 3 examples of a Conservative minister lying over the existence of a veto.

Off topic of Penny Mordaunt lying onTV, Spring. I'm sure you're disgusted to a fellow Brexiteer lying like that. Is that another example of the present Conservative government being unreliable and untrustworthy. Or would some people be generous and proclaim it as incompetence rather than a lie?

Should Penny Mordaunt resign?

Winterbiscuit Tue 31-May-16 19:05:53

Should Penny Mordaunt resign?

I don't know whether she was uniformed or deliberately giving false information. In the absence of any other falsehoods I think she was probably just mistaken.

But if dishonesty is grounds for resignation, there are a whole lot more politicians around the world who should resign first, or should have resigned when in office. Juncker, Cameron, Osborne, Blair...

Winterbiscuit Tue 31-May-16 19:07:01

uninformed, not uniformed

Pangurban1 Tue 31-May-16 20:35:15

Lots of speculation and numbers being 'creatively' moved around like musical chairs on both sides. To be kind.

This was slightly more brazen, though. The fact that it was falsely denied on 3 separate occasions and a sort of denial on a fourth. If you are 'uninformed', you say you don't know. As a minister on tv and all that. Maybe she chose her falsehood carefully to misinform a large public audience.

Or else she is completely incompetent and still a bit morally dodgy if she is willing to brass neck live something she had no idea about. Or relay 'uninformed' information which was completely untrue with no concern about the veracity of her response.

Did she issue an apology for blatantly misinforming lying to the public?

bananabrain35 Thu 02-Jun-16 14:23:28

So if the EU is voting on the Turkey visa issue on June 28, and rejects it (as seems likely), the Turks have said they will stop the repatriation of migrants in the "migrant for Syrian refugee swap" deal agreed with Merkel and co. The vote is June that the date that the Mediterranean migrant crisis resumes...5 days after our referendum?

bananabrain35 Wed 08-Jun-16 20:56:57

Does Turkey hold all the cards with the EU?

Millyonthefloss Wed 08-Jun-16 21:34:27

Turkey may well join. If not this year then next. The EU often breaks it's own rules. Look at Greece. They came in even thugh they did not fulfil any of the required criteria for entry. The EU runs by horse trading eg "Be nice to Turkey Cyprus and you can have free money and a new airport." It was repeated on News night last night by Kwasi that it could happen. Turkey has some strong bargaining chips.

Btw. I should say that I've never met a Turk I did not like. But still. There are quite a lot of them

Apparently there is an old clip going round of Cameron endorsing Turkeys entry.

bananabrain35 Wed 08-Jun-16 21:38:45


Do you mean this one? Andrew Neil showing that DC has talked out of both sides of his mouth on this one.

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