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I've only just ventured into this topic and

(18 Posts)
MardyBra Tue 24-May-16 08:00:02

at a first glance I'm already bored by the plethora of pro Brexit threads by a couple of posters - generally with a hysterical unfounded supposition backed up with a link from a tabloid not known for robust journalism.

Just saying.

MardyBra Tue 24-May-16 08:13:37

Anyway, got to go to work now, so will back out.

Palehorse Tue 24-May-16 08:50:46

I'm sure someone will be along in just a minute with an epic post and a plethora of links to dodgy blogs, and of course BREXIT the movie, to tell you just how wrong you are and how you need the scales to fall from your eyes...........

wallybantersjunkbox Tue 24-May-16 10:21:32

Yes there are some posters with dubious names posting propaganda and general muck stirring.

It's tiring. And worrying that we can't add a current affairs section without this kind of bombardment.

Report and ignore op...

BreakingDad77 Tue 24-May-16 11:04:29

Thats what frustrates me about Brexit I would be really interested if people actually came up with:
*whose going to get these deals with what countries,
*a reality check on that dealing with Europe would include free movement (so all that securing our borders can be put to bed)
*What structural changes are we going to make in the UK to stop Brexit being used to untie workers rights in the name of cutting red tape and then giving all savings away as tax breaks
*Anyone who receives EU money from Farmers to Science will this be ringfenced?
*UKIP and Tories want to change the NHS without exemption so why do people use the 'fear' of TTIP as a reason to Brexit. There is a lot of backlash against TTIP across Europe. Are tories/UKIP making any noises against it - no - so why do you think in Brexit the UK gov would not open our market to the US in the same way?

Winterbiscuit Tue 24-May-16 12:19:45

What are you hoping to see discussed MardyBra?

lljkk Wed 25-May-16 20:29:24

There have been a couple of good discussions on Radio 5 Live today. Peter Allen with a panel of women (around 11:30am) & then a story about 2 neighbours with adjoining balconies, on opposite sides of the vote, but have agreed to disagree.

Banderwassnatched Wed 25-May-16 20:40:38

Re. the farming subsidies- farmers tend to vote Tory, so a Tory government is likely to defend their subsidies.

As for free movement- one of my worries about Brexit is losing free movement, it is a marvellous thing to have. If we can have it from outside the EU; I will vote Leave, no question.

I'd like the Bremainers to intellectually or philosophically justify the exclusive nature of the EU club, and why Brexit is the 'nasty' option and Bremain is 'nice'.

SpringingIntoAction Wed 25-May-16 21:07:18

As for free movement- one of my worries about Brexit is losing free movement, it is a marvellous thing to have. If we can have it from outside the EU; I will vote Leave, no question

Free movemnet is not exclusive to the EU, it's actually a requiremnet for all countries within the EEA (European Economic Area) that comprises the EU and the EFTA (the European FreeTrade Association(.

EFTA was founded by the following seven countries: Austria, Denmark, Norway, Portugal, Sweden, Switzerland and the United Kingdom. Finland joined in 1961, Iceland in 1970 and Liechtenstein in 1991. In 1973, the United Kingdom and Denmark left EFTA to join the EC. They were followed by Portugal in 1986 and by Austria, Finland and Sweden in 1995. Today the EFTA Member States are Iceland, Liechtenstein, Norway and Switzerland

So, if we left the EU there is a chance we may regain our EFTA membership (Swiz has already have suggested we do) and if we do we would have free movement, but not be EU members.

SpringingIntoAction Wed 25-May-16 21:22:45

whose going to get these deals with what countries

The Govt. It will negotiate our exit from the EU and will regain our UK seat on the World Trade organisation that will permit us to tradefreely throughout the world under WTO terms. You do not need 'trade deals' to trade. The EU has no trade deals at present with major countries, such as US, Australia, Japan, China etc. Trade deals are nice but not essential.

a reality check on that dealing with Europe would include free movement (so all that securing our borders can be put to bed)

We trade with 168 other countries that are not in the EU but do not have to offer their citizens residency in the UK nr do we expect tobe able to go and live in US or Japan becaseu we tarde with the,. The North American FreeTrade Agreement does not give Mexicans the right to live in US or Canada. The EU is the only 'trade deal' that requires free movement - because it is actually a political union.

What structural changes are we going to make in the UK to stop Brexit being used to untie workers rights in the name of cutting red tape and then giving all savings away as tax breaks

It amuses when people keep saying the Govt can't wait to scrapworkers rights because they have forgotten that the Govy has just raised the minimum wage and will do so again, has improved maternity and paternity rights and increased nursery provision - all of which assist working parents. Its the EU you should fear it you want to protect workers rights as the EU suspended colloctive bargaining in Ireland, Portugal and Greece as part of the EU bailouts of those countries. That's why trade unionists do not all recommend staying in the EU. Look at the backers of the REMAIN campaign - big banks, hedge funds and big corporations (many of them tax-dodgers) - hardly great examples of upholders of workers rights.

Anyone who receives EU money from Farmers to Science will this be ringfenced?

It's not 'EU money' - it's UK taxpayers hard-earned cash that is given to the EU membership fees. The EU takes its cut and hands the rest back t us. Hardly an efficient way of funding things. When the poor peasant farmers of new EU member countries Albania, Macedonia, Bosnia, etc all join the EU you will find that UK farm subsidies are reduced to assist those even more as needy farmers. Common sense tells you it's better for the UK to pay UK tax payers money to UK farmers at a rate the UK dictates - without the need for an expensive middleman - the EU.

UKIP and Tories want to change the NHS without exemption so why do people use the 'fear' of TTIP as a reason to Brexit. There is a lot of backlash against TTIP across Europe. Are tories/UKIP making any noises against it - no - so why do you think in Brexit the UK gov would not open our market to the US in the same way?

If we left the EU the Govt could not participate in TTIP because that deal is between the EU and the US (not us).
So, leave the EU, avoid TTIP.

The Govt couldn't - even if it wanted to - open the NHS to a TTIP like deal because President Obama helpfully told us that it would take at least 10 years for the US to start a trade deal with the UK because we were at the back of the queue.

There is no danger in leaving the EU and regaining control of our laws. The bigger danger is to hand control to the EU and expect it to treat us nicely - not a risk I want to take.

BreakingDad77 Thu 26-May-16 10:23:51

Trade deals - not really answered my question which is that tories and Nu-Labour have a history of getting crap deals for the UK taxpayer so what are we going to get them trying to get deals on the global stage. Recent government has signed up to a massively overpriced nuclear power plant. I cant see how prices aren't going to go up a lot.

securing of borders again not really answered my question, Brexiters use this as code for:
-controlling workers from Eastern Europe
So do you accept being in or out will make no difference?
-as well as any future application by turkey.
Being in we get to veto future applications, being out we dont. Also we leave the Dublin agreement so we have no recourse to get non EU people to register when they land in France.

Why should i fear it as the UK aren't going to need a bailout......

It amuses when people keep saying the Govt can't wait to scrapworkers rights because they have forgotten that the Gov has just raised the minimum wage and will do so again

Yes because the poorest are getting poorer and we got food banks in 2016! and because we are in at the moment. Its begrudgingly and only on the back of giving people tax breaks (the same thing) and taking money off disabled people. Yes the backers are dodgy as hell but thats a UK problem to sort out as the Tories and Nu-Labour types dont like paying tax.So you honestly think that none of this will get touched as part of cutting red tape, what is going to be cut?

Ringfencing EU money
As I thought pretty much thought - a no then, so that will be a load of redundancies and a brain drain.

Pangurban1 Thu 26-May-16 11:18:32

www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2016/04/eu-debate-must-not-ignore-northern-ireland

It seems that the results of a poll for remain or leave is significantly different in Northern Ireland compared to England, Wales and Scotland. I saw a bar chart of the poll that divided how people said they were going to vote in the referendum based on whether they were from a Nationalist or Unionist background. It was something like 91% remain for 'Nationalists' and early 50%'s Leave for 'Unionists'. This translated into roughly 75% for remain in Northern Ireland in total. The next strongest remain vote in a poll was Scotland at 64%, then Wales and then England. I'll try to find the bar chart on that. I don't know how they dealt with people who said they came from neither background or whether they omitted them.

Northern Ireland is only 15% of the population of UK, though.

BreakingDad77 Thu 26-May-16 13:42:37

Pangurban - its going to be down to the wire so every % will count.

Pangurban1 Thu 26-May-16 14:51:18

Oh Gosh. Sorry, wrong percentage. Northern Ireland has 2.8/2.9% of the UK population. Where did I get that 15%? I don't know what % of the electorate, though.

England has the predominant population at 83%, so whatever way the electorate in England goes will have the most sway on the result.

LizzieZ Sat 04-Jun-16 10:13:31

At last people are realising that the organisations trying to terrify us about Brexit are funded by the EU and the big banks which caused the crash - J P Morgan and friends - are bankrolling the Remain campaign.

BornFreeButinEUchains Sat 04-Jun-16 10:29:29

I'd like the Bremainers to intellectually or philosophically justify the exclusive nature of the EU club, and why Brexit is the 'nasty' option and Bremain is 'nice'

Some minority groups would strongly disagree with this. They see the EU as a "whites only" exclusive club, ring fencing EU from outside migration. They also see the Far Right on the rise across the EU and recognise that some of these countries are very deeply racist.

Overall the UK is a liberal and easy place to live, and let live.

BornFreeButinEUchains Sat 04-Jun-16 10:31:14

Common sense tells you it's better for the UK to pay UK tax payers money to UK farmers at a rate the UK dictates - without the need for an expensive middleman - the EU.

of course.

Winterbiscuit Sat 04-Jun-16 11:20:03

They see the EU as a "whites only" exclusive club, ring fencing EU from outside migration.

That's a very interesting point and one I haven't heard before.

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