The EU Referendum is nearly upon us.........23rd June.

[Daisyonthegreen]

I have been invited by other posters to start a new EU Referendum Thread as the EU thread "In out shake it all about what to vote in the EU referendum "is now closed.
Anyhow this vote is is pretty crucial for the good of the country and your family.
I make no secret of the fact I feel to vote to Leave is the best option.
On the "In out shake it all about,what to vote in the EU Referendum " Thread I posted many links and gave views on why I feel that way.
I feel we would flourish free of the beaucratic ,undemocratic organisation it has turned into.
A Trading block initially started up with 9 countries in the 1970s has become out of control,mammoth and unwieldy and frankly rather dangerous.
We need to wrest back control of our own country,our borders and our ability to broker our own Trade deals which the EU insists on doing for us.
Plus our own Judicial decisions.
We on leaving would still Trade with the EU,they need us more than we need them actually but the beauty of it we could be free to broker our own deals with the rest of the world on our terms.
In short we would flourish.
We can love/ like Europe but not be in the EU.

[stilllovingmysleep]

Daisyonthegreen: two questions

First what do you refer to when you say 'they need us more than we need them'?

Second: who is the 'we' you refer to? English people? U.K. Residents? What are your views about those who are from EU countries, living long term in the uk? How do you think leaving will affect them? How do you think most or them feel about this referendum?

[YokoUhOh]

There will be no UK if 'we' leave the EU: Scotland and NI will vote to leave and rejoin the EU.

People banging on about the democratic deficit clearly haven't considered that the UK government are powerless in the face of unfettered capitalism and tax-dodging conglomerates.

I am making escape plans should the UK leave the EU.

[Daisyonthegreen]

We= Uk as a country
EU residency here of EU nationals : I have no idea , I am a mum not a politician.
People with more acumen than me would deal with these nuances.
I have met some EU nationals and they are sanguine about our Democratic right to hold Referenda.
They respect our right to a Democratic vote.

[Daisyonthegreen]

YokoUhOh
I don't think there are any fears over Scotland.
www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/feb/24/euroscepticism-scotland-record-high
Please !Democracy is precious.

[Daisyonthegreen]

Stillovingmysleep
Forgot: yes "they need us more than we need them,"
we have a Trade deficit with the EU meaning we export more to the EU than we import from the EU.Hence they EU needs us more than we need them.

[GOnorthwilts]

Gosh, it's difficult to know where to start, so I will start with a 'Hello'. My name is Tim, and I'm an activist with @GOnorthwilts, a grassroots movement advocating British exit from the European Union.

I agree very much with what has been stated by Daisyonthegreen, there is much to fear with regard to continued membership of the EU, and I am saying that as somebody who has lived and worked in Germany and who knows many mainland Europeans who are just as concerned as many many of us here in the UK.

Sadly, what is taking place at the moment across much of the British media is what is being referred to as 'Project Fear', and this is not the first time. I was in Scotland in 2014 and witnessed Project Fear mark1!

In terms of EU nationals based in the UK on a British exit from the EU, there would not be a mass round of peoples and nor should there be, what would take place is a negotiated political settlement over time. And to be honest, what I personally favour is the sort of bilateral relationship the likes of Norway or Switzerland enjoy with the European Union. That is a scenario that is all very normal, and not remotely looking like Steve McQueen trying to jump barbed wire on his motorbike!

In terms of the nations of the UK, this is something very close to my heart as an advocate of devolution and federalism across these islands, the opinions and rights of people from different historical and linguistic backgrounds is a very important consideration. To be honest, I am not at all entirely sold on the idea that the voting intentions with regards to the EU issue will be as different in Scotland as we are often led to believe.

I personally believe that Scotland will achieve far greater autonomy than it has now and maybe even independence comfortably in my lifetime (I'm 34), but I don't believe it will be the European issue which makes or brakes this. In terms of Wales and Northern Ireland, the latter I would argue is broadly eurosceptic, they only have to look south and witness the turmoil Dublin has to cope with by complying with EU dictates, such as Irish Water. Whilst Wales' approach to the EU pretty much matches that of England. I hope all this reads OK, I've just banged it out :-)

[stilllovingmysleep]

Daisy, this phrase that you wrote says it all:

"I have met some EU nationals and they are sanguine about our Democratic right to hold Referenda. They respect our right to a Democratic vote."

This phrase, to my mind, summarises why this whole referendum is all about racism and nothing else.

You talk about 'we' excluding EU nationals. And yet, as an EU national, have lived for decades in the UK & deeply resent your differentiation between 'us' and 'you'. I as a UK resident have as much of a stake in this country, in which I live, in which I work, in which my DS goes at school. I do not accept this 'we' versus 'them' that you so casually throw into the conversation. It is racist, divisive & deeply problematic in so many ways.

If this referendum was a truly democratic one, all UK residents who have lived here for a number of years would have a right to vote in it, as they have a massive stake in what happens.

By the way: what happens as to EU nationals and their right to live and work in the UK is not a 'nuance' as again you casually say. Perhaps you haven't noticed that a large, large part of the UK population are not English and they too have as much of a right as you do to have a say in what happens in this country.

[Chalalala]

thanks for starting a new thread Daisy

(still disagree with most of what you say of course )

[Daisyonthegreen]

Trade deficit info from a newspaper.
www.express.co.uk/news/politics/651881/Britain-EU-trade-deficit-EU-referendum-Brexit

[lurked101]

"what I personally favour is the sort of bilateral relationship the likes of Norway or Switzerland enjoy with the European Union"

You mean the one where Norway and Switzerland have to accept freedom of movement and contribute to the EU budget, follow regulations and yet have no input into the EU? Yes that sounds like a great idea. Norway pays 90% per capita as much as the UK does into the EU.

Daisy: "we have a Trade deficit with the EU meaning we export more to the EU than we import from the EU." Well that's just incorect, what you have stated is that we have a trade surplus with the EU. We don't we run a trade surplus on the current account with the EU.

We export 44% of our goods to the EU, and about 52% of our exports in total would go to the EU if we added in services.

In contrast 15% of EU exports (both goods and services) come to the UK.

It is certainly not a case of "They need us more than we need them".

In fact the access to the largest single market in the world is very important to British firms and 71% of SMEs (CBI data) say that the EU benefits them.

[lurked101]

<a class="break-all" href="http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20160105160709/www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/international-transactions/outward-foreign-affiliates-statistics/how-important-is-the-european-union-to-uk-trade-and-investment-/sty-eu.html" rel="nofollow noindex" target="_blank">webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20160105160709/www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/international-transactions/outward-foreign-affiliates-statistics/how-important-is-the-european-union-to-uk-trade-and-investment-/sty-eu.html

Trade deficit information from the ONS.

[GOnorthwilts]

One last thing before I turn in and get some shut eye. My reasoning for wanting the UK to achieve Brexit is framed very much in a left wing argument rather than anything else. Contrary to popular belief, there are many on the left who are sceptical of the EU and wish to achieve Brexit. If anybody is interested check out this fellow who was a high ranking Scottish National Party politician, is most definitely of the left and who advocates Brexit;

twitter.com/NaeFear

Night all,

Tim

[GOnorthwilts]

oh goodness me just caught lurked101 post. That is a very popular misconception and i will come back to that for sure :-)

Night all

[Daisyonthegreen]

Stillovingmysleep
I am not responsible for rules,regs,who votes who doesn't,I am a mum not a politician.
As said policies deal with the details.

[Daisyonthegreen]

• policiticians.

[lurked101]

Not a misconception, ONS data proves we have a trade deficit with the EU:

"has resulted in the UK’s overall trade balance with the EU deteriorating (value of imports exceeding exports), with the trade deficit widening notably, reaching £61.6 billion in 2014 compared with £11.2 billion in 1999, as shown by the black dotted line in Figure 2."

[Chalalala]

Tim I'd be sympathetic to left-wing Brexit arguments and I looked at that Twitter account, but I'm not convinced. It's probably easier to think you'll get left-wing policies post-Brexit if you are Scottish! In England we are stuck with the Tories for the foreseeable future. So, arguments like "the EU used the economic crisis to impose austerity" don't really work, because that's exactly what the Tories would do in or out of the EU anyway!

[stilllovingmysleep]

Daisy: I am also a mum not a politician, and have political views (as do you). Your political views have consequences for which you are responsible, as is everyone who votes. So the excuse 'I am a mum not a politician' is just that: an excuse.

And what a phrase: 'policies will deal with the details'!!

The question of what happens to EU citizens if Brexit is achieved is not a detail for a very large number of people. It is their main concern. For which you don't seem to care, except to see it as a 'detail'.

Your view which you pertain is that of a 'mum' and not a 'politician' has little to do, I believe, with the EU's bureaucracy (which after all doesn't affect you directly, I would bet) and all to do with what you call 'details' which is that you want EU citizens out of the UK. Racism, as I said. Which is what this whole referendum is.

[stilllovingmysleep]

The Tories will get even worse outside the EU. Austerity is not imposed externally, it is beloved & enthusiastically adopted by the Tories. They don't need help to do that.
Also, the EU as it is right now doesn't have to be the only EU we support. Being 'pro' the EU does not mean being 'pro' all the shabby dealings / political fiascos the EU has become recently. We can participate hopefully in changing the EU from within. (Maybe I'm optimistic but that's my view).
(See Daisy? I say 'we' rather than 'you'.).

[GlassOfPort]

Another EU national who's been living, working and paying taxes in the UK for many years.

I have many European friends here and many who work in professional jobs in France, Spain, Germany. That is because freedom of movement has empowered a whole generation to study abroad, learn a new language, experience life in another country.

My friends and I, together with millions of others, can easily travel across Europe without spending a fortune (there would be no low-cost airlines if the EU had not liberalised air transport), being ripped off in case of delay or cancellation (EU air passenger flights), or ending up with ludicrous mobile phone bills (the EU has now abolished roaming charges).

Yes, the EU is not a perfect model of democratic accountability (although it would help if people turned up to vote at European Elections, instead of staying at home and then complaining about an unelected dictatorship...), yes it can be improved, but it has been mostly a force for good.

[GOnorthwilts]

www.theguardian.com/society/2016/apr/06/brexit-is-necessary-to-protect-nhs-from-ttip-says-david-owen

[AnnaForbes]

As long as we get cheap flights eh?

[stilllovingmysleep]

AnnaForbes is that what you read from the previous post?

[stilllovingmysleep]

And by the way cheap flights are very important for those who have family abroad.

[AnnaForbes]

It didn't take long for the accusations of racism did it? What a convenient way to try and shut down debate. If the poster who called racist, cared to read the original thread, she would see a plethora of reasons why some of us are voting to leave, non of them racist.