"Black face" in comedy, but....

[goodbyefromtheotherside]

Several shows and movies are being removed for showing "black face".

Question is!! How about cross dressers?! When men dressed up as women to do comedy? It can be seen as offensive as dressing up as a different race. It perpetuates stereotypes. Let's boycott "Mrs Brown's boys" and other shows like it while we're at it.

Shall we go on?? How about ageism?! Comedians/actors doing a character of a different generation. How about a character of a different socioeconomic class?? Or sexuality?

I don't know how to feel about all this.... maybe we should cancel all of it? And never make more, maybe that would make our society better? Counterargument: the scripwriting is still done by one person.... so maybe we should focus on that instead of the acting? (Like the Bechdel test and so on)

Thoughts?

[Gwenhwyfar]

Let's get rid of every programme more than a year old. By the end of lockdown, we'll have nothing to watch.

[Nellydean21]

Because Womanface is misogynist and misogyny is not taken seriously. Logically you either approve or disapprove of both. I find both offensive.

Racism is damaging, so is misogyny .

[334bu]

The history behind " black face" particularly in the US really puts it into a whole other category of toxicity and hate. Other parodies can be toxic too; the appalling misogyny behind much of drag is a good example but. "black face is truly abhorrent.

[SiaPR]

@334bu

The history behind " black face" particularly in the US really puts it into a whole other category of toxicity and hate. Other parodies can be toxic too; the appalling misogyny behind much of drag is a good example but. "black face is truly abhorrent.

I agree with you that blackface is truly abhorrent , but why are you measuring it against misogyny? They really are not in competition. The oppression of women still seems to be acceptable. Even in 2020.

[Blackberrybunnet]

I asked this same question of a friend who supports drag. She (yes, it was a woman) told me that men in drag are "exploring their feminine side". Seems strange to me that they tend to explore a side that most women do not exhibit, and that they are often (although not always) out to poke fun at feminine traits. Women are not entertainment.

[romeolovedjulliet]

i find drag offensive as if the artist taking the piss out of women.

[bonfireheart]

What I don't get about drag and all things boys now wearing makeup..if a 15 year old girl wore that much makeup people would roll their eyes and judge them. 15 year old boy wears make up and everyone is like wow he's amazing ... I don't get it.

[JediGnot]

@334bu

The history behind " black face" particularly in the US really puts it into a whole other category of toxicity and hate. Other parodies can be toxic too; the appalling misogyny behind much of drag is a good example but. "black face is truly abhorrent.

I get that take on it, and I absolute detest old fashioned comedians like Jim Davidson. Do you hate all black-face, or only when they are "parodies"?

FWIW I quite liked Little Britain when it was on, I think, but since I have become very uncomfortable about lots of it (not least the portrayal of working class people, and especially blackface).

Reeves and Mortimer have also used blackface, but what I've seen is so ludicrous and silly that (to me) it's impossible to be offended by. Less parody more total silliness.

Blackface is worse than men as women, I agree. But I think that the key is how and why it's done - men can dress up as women in a way that is pretty unpleasant, but it can be harmless fun.

[JediGnot]

@Blackberrybunnet

I asked this same question of a friend who supports drag. She (yes, it was a woman) told me that men in drag are "exploring their feminine side". Seems strange to me that they tend to explore a side that most women do not exhibit, and that they are often (although not always) out to poke fun at feminine traits. Women are not entertainment.

Yeah, how good of the men concerned to make such an effort to get inside the heads of women and explore what womanhood really means. As if.

How does this excuse differ from someone in blackface saying they're exploring the experience of being in a racial minority?

[BoffinMum]

I don’t like drag and caricatures of women and think they represent sexist crap. Now let’s get on to more important things. Mrs Brown’s Boys is a silly programme for old-fashioned people. Half the family in it can’t act for toffee anyway, they are really wooden. The only interesting thing they do in that programme are the novelty Christmas trees, which are comedy genius. But the rest of the programme is like something ropey out of the 1970s, paying a kind of homage to George and Mildred. Is that what modern Ireland is like?

[LaetitiaASD]

@Blackberrybunnet

I asked this same question of a friend who supports drag. She (yes, it was a woman) told me that men in drag are "exploring their feminine side". Seems strange to me that they tend to explore a side that most women do not exhibit, and that they are often (although not always) out to poke fun at feminine traits. Women are not entertainment.

Your friend is od.d Men in drag are not exploring their feminine side. And even if they were is that acceptable when done for laughs? Why shouldn't I black up and go outside to explore what it would be like to be black? Same thing.

[lljkk]

I don't mind men in drag or , tbh.

[LaetitiaASD]

For me it is (ideally) all about the person's intentions AND their execution.

In theory blackface can be fine. In practice it usually makes me uncomfortable at best. Reeves and Mortimer used to use it and their stuff is so downright silly and the "impressions" of other races are so innacurate and ludicrous that I can't get offended and find it funny. But it still makes me a bit uncomfortable.

In theory drag can be fine, but in practice

In theory a "racist joke" can be fine, but there is practically no-one who can do it with such good intention and such skill that it actually is funny and non-offensive.

TLDR - blackface and womanface (and racist jokes, and jokes about death or cancer) can be fine, but the vast majority of people, the vast majority of the time, simply shouldn't do any of those things, because the vast majority fall into lazy offensive stereotypes and don't even manage to be funny or entertaining to at least partially compensate.

[LaetitiaASD]

in practice drag is usually an offensive charicature.

[TooBigForMyBoots]

Blackface is offensive on multiple levels, not least nearly the entire Black Community saying it is damaging to them. There may come a time in the future, when there is racial equality, that it could become acceptable again.

Crossdressing is different. Subverting sex and gender has a long history in our culture. Unlike Blackface, it can be funny, intelligent and raise interesting questions. Also unlike Black Face, there is no consensus among women that it is detrimental to them.

[LaetitiaASD]

@TooBigForMyBoots

Blackface is offensive on multiple levels, not least nearly the entire Black Community saying it is damaging to them. There may come a time in the future, when there is racial equality, that it could become acceptable again.

Crossdressing is different. Subverting sex and gender has a long history in our culture. Unlike Blackface, it can be funny, intelligent and raise interesting questions. Also unlike Black Face, there is no consensus among women that it is detrimental to them.

I understand that there is a history and perception of blackface, not least amongst black people themselves, that mean that I would NEVER consider it, whereas I have worn drag in the past and it is possible I would again.

I understand that blackface and drag are not the same.

However I also believe women have been oppressed for longer than black people, and in ways that are worse in some respects. And in many respects misogyny is still acceptable and needs overt fighting more than racism does (not that one should compare).

I also believe that drag is often nasty and unfunny, which doesn't make it any better than blackface.

[TooBigForMyBoots]

I also believe that drag is often nasty and unfunny, which doesn't make it any better than blackface.

Comedy is nasty and unfunny. It is also amazing and necessary. My top tip would be to avoid shit comedy. Don't patronise anything you consider nasty and unfunny. But understand that your views are not the views of all women, given the viewing figures for Mrs. Brown's Boys.

[lljkk]

This thread made me look up .
The thing is overall in his comedy, BH made just as 'offensive' caricatures of men as he did of the women in this clip. You can't say he didn't poke fun of men as much as the women in his skits. Most of his skits were about hopeless male behaviour.

The clips are uncannily like the actual Charlies Angels shows; if anything, these routines send up very well how ridiculous C-A was.

Acting, comedy... are all about pretending to be things ppl aren't.

[Ijustreallywantacat]

I've said this before and I'll say it again.

Drag was and always has been a middle finger from an oppressed class to society. It started as gay effeminate men wanted to hide who they were as their existence was illegal.

Blackface is a middle finger from society to an oppressed.

Drag artists are not exclusively men, not exclusively in high heels and fake boobs, and about performance as a subversion of society's masculine ideals for men. Drag kings also exist, as do bio queens.

I suggest listening to some stories behind drag. It's not 'I hate women and I want to make fun of them' its 'I don't want to/can't conform to society's expectations of men/I love wearing heels for my own purposes.