Flexible working in academia? Commuting to London?

[Acinonyx]

I finished my PhD last year and am now applying for lectureships and postdocs. I have one dd, 5 in July, who is in reception and goes to a CM twice/week.

I want to continue to pick her up from school 3 days/week so I will be asking to drop a full time post down to 4/days week, 3 in the dept and 2 half+ days at home. How realistic is this? How likely am I to be committing professional suicide? When should I mention this - at the interview or only if I am offered a job?

Worse still, most of the jobs are coming up in London which would be a 1.5 hour+ commute by car and rail each way. Even worse, dh travels regularly for work, so cannot be relied on to get her to her CM who could take her at 7.30 am (but that would not get me to a 9 am lecture in London on time).

The child care issues are daunting and paying to commute and for a part-time nanny on junior lecturer's salary is depressing. What do other people do?

[hatwoman]

acinonyx - well done on your phd - I started a similar thread recently and it was quite interesting. i'll post a link for you

[hatwoman]

here

[Acinonyx]

That is slightly scary!

I can see a lectureship being a lot more challenging than research only, and that I would end up working FT even if I was contracted 4 days/week. Might need to though just to protect my dept start/leaving times.

What are you doing now hatwoman?

[Acinonyx]

I meant 2 days/week which would require me to be working two (long) half days from home - so yes, I would be next door to the school. I'm sure it isn't a great plus point to my employability - but it's non-negotiable. If the only choice is to go full-time 9-5 with no flexibility then I wouldn't take it anyway. So I have to put this to them early on.

I do know people who have had this kind of arrangement even for a first lectureship so it can be done. A good friend of mine commuted even further to London only going in to the dept to lecture 3 days/week due to childcare committments. He then got tenure more locally - but asked for 4 days/week at interview which was granted. He has now moved up to full time.

If it were a research only post at my local university I have already looked into it and I'm confident I could get the flexibility - although I suspect I'd be working a lot of nights and weekends. But I think there might never be a lectureship in my specialism locally which is why I am looking at London.

The thing that worries me most is adding the commute to the mix. I think that might be a bridge too far.

It's not that I'm optimistic - it's just that this is the only way it can work for me. If that makes me unemployable - I can live with that.

I hope you aren't my future potential employer

[Acinonyx]

I know exactly what you mean - I was a molecular biologist in a past life and have er, fond memories of coming in at strange anti-social hours to 'feed the cells'.

Fortunately, I've crossed to the twilight zone since then - my proper scientist friends despair of me.....

[CeliaChettam]

I would get the job and then worry about it. I have 2 dc, one in y3 and one at nursery, and a full time, tenured and promoted position in a RG university. I do all the school drop-offs and about half the pick-ups, the rest coxed and boxed between dh and friends in the same position. It means my teaching is spread through the week, but I still have one clear research day and in practice it means I do teaching and admin in the office 9.30 - 3ish and research at home 8-midnight or so 2 or 3 days a week and work longer days on the others. It's never occurred to me to consider this less than a full time job, and many of my colleagues do a similar juggling act for similar reasons. Of course there's no commute in this scenario, but I have colleagues who have the kind of commute you're talking about and they just come in 3 days a week and work from home the rest of the time. (And come in much less outside teaching weeks). It all depends on the institution, but in the London universities I know well there's an assumption that people will live miles away and come in when there's a reason to do so - that kind of freedom seems to me like one of the few remaining perks of academia! As long as you keep up with your teaching, admin and research, I can't see why anybody would care how you organise your hours. Most academic contracts don't specify hours - don't ask, don't tell. (And especially not before being offered the job...)

[hatwoman]

back again. I had a long chat the other day with a mum from dds' school who's a lecturer (in science). her dh is an academic too. they are both well established in their careers and they have quite a bit of flexibility - it seems that there's no culture of presenteeism. she works very hard - til teh early hours sometimes but picks her kids up from school a couple of times a week, then working from home in the evening.

re what am i doing? well I didn;t get the long-distance job so the wfh issue never had to be addressed. I'm in the process of a aplying for a research fellowship for a non-academic funder and also a lecturing job for my local uni(despite my distinct lack of a PhD...). and otherwise carrying on with consultancy work. if neither job comes off I may consider a PhD. but I feel too old for all that...

[UnseenAcademicalMum]

Acinonyx, I am a lecturer with 2 ds's and I do 4 days per week. In all honesty I think if I'd have started on that, I'd never have been offered the job in the first place! There is a lot of competition for lectureships and so this will play against you and you'll have to prove you are twice as worth it research- or rather research-income-wise.

You might be better off with a postdoc, build up your professional reputation and then go for a part-time lectureship.

Academic jobs are wonderfully flexible once you are there (though still expect to do a full time work load for a 4 day per week contract and expect to be working most weekends/evenings), but are notoriously hard to get in the first place.

FWIW most people I know (in science) do at least 4-8+ years of post docs before getting their first serious lecturing post.

[Acinonyx]

Unseen - I think a postdoc locally would be a much more doable option too. As for the lectureship - I think I am on the borderline of what might be considered for interview. It's a pretty small, specialist field, which OTOH helps but ONTOH means there a very few opportunities for the few of us chasing them. In fact, if they are prepared to upgrade the position, I would bet good money that I can name who will get it.

'You might be better off with a postdoc, build up your professional reputation and then go for a part-time lectureship.' Really, I know this is the best plan.

I think what I'm hoping for is an interview, to get some idea of my market value. I'm also wondering if they might have me do some specialist lectures or some such if I can make a good impression.

Celia - if it weren't for the commute, I would just work around it without making a formal request.

[fairylights]

hi acinonyx,well done of finishing your PhD! just wanted to say that my dh is an academic and i know he would say that it would be very very unlikely that you would be able to negotiate for less than f/t hours - or to start off in a job with the expectation of being as flexible as that - once you are established maybe, but not at the beginning (and i am speaking here having been the one who has had to take all the family-slack because my dh was in that position getting himself established! He's a way on from that now but it wasn't always easy...and i have been studying myself most of that time!). So i think you are wise to look for postdoc positions first.
it seems to me (from the outside) that is is a really competitive business getting established as an academic so don't be discouraged it if takes a while. And all the best!

[SethStarkaddersMum]

depends entirely on the department.
mine encouraged us all to work from home two days a week because of getting research done free from distractions. But it wasn't a regular 2 days - you were given the timetable and had to fit in your 2 days round it.

However a friend in London in a similar subject had a dept which would not let her work from home at all even when she was pregnant with SPD and struggling with the commute.

in my dh's place, you can ask for a number of 'timetable exclusions' whereby you won't have to teach, say, the 9-10 slot. But other than that they are all there full-time.

where another friend works, she negotiated to work from home THREE days a week when they asked her to take on an extra responsibility as deputy Head of Dept. But she is already a research star and has a lot of negotiating power.

[hatwoman]

my friend has an interesting work pattern - she lectures quite intensively for 2 terms (autumn and spring). she says that during that time she pretty much abandons research - but she then has 6 months with no teaching responsibilities and proper time to focus. that seems a lot more appealing (to me, anyway) than trying to do a few hours here and there

[peppapighastakenovermylife]

I think it depends on where you work and in what field which isnt much help sorry.

I work in a particularly child friendly place (well I do do midwifery research so you would hope so ) and hardly anyone is left by 3pm.

I come in early and leave early - sometimes to pick up from school, the rest of the time to pick up from nursey at 4.I dont think I have ever been in the building past 4.30 pm (but do get in by 8 am).

If I am not teaching or do not have a meeting I do not come in. Some colleagues are literally in one day a week. Over the summer I might not see people for weeks on end.

I have however been at this institution for years and they know I work very hard (make up the time in the evening). I also think it works because no one puts it in writing or speaks about it - it just occurs and everyone turns a blind eye.

I had one brief stint away at a different uni who although at interview said I could work flexibly then insisted I had to be in 5 days per week full days. I walked out as it was impossible.

It really depends on the nature of your department - everyone here is the same so it works and we all have kids (apart from a few). This is actually the reason why I went into academia because of this flexibility in most places.

[peppapighastakenovermylife]

oh but I do have to work all hours to make this work - I am, ahem, working now of course . I tend to work for at least a couple of hours each evening and then dont really have many holidays.

Academia is a way of life not a job.

[Xenia]

I think it varies. Could you not pick something better paid though and be able to afford childcare?

These threads make me wonder where tax payer money goes and how long we can sustain this in the public sector but that's a little off topic.

I bet it's pretty hard to sack slackers too or hard workers who aren't good but would be delighted if people tell me that is not so.

[peppapighastakenovermylife]

I am really confused Xenia?

I don't understand the context of the comments? Sack slackers or hard workers who arent good? Where tax payers money goes?

Isn't this a thread about flexible working or am I missing something?

[inveteratenamechanger]

Actually Xenia, there is tons of pressure on people who are not perceived to be performing well (often unfairly).

Not sure why you are worried about tax payer value for money, as what everybody seems to be saying is that they work extremely hard - just not always in the office. IME, academics are excellent value for money, precisely because of the 'way of life' philosophy. Most of my colleagues take little or no holiday, and everybody works 45+ hours a week. Many do nearer 60 or 70 hours. (Which makes for a crap and family unfriendly work culture, but that's another story.)

[peppapighastakenovermylife]

I agree - I typically work at least a 50 hour if not 60 hour week. Cant really remember when I last took a proper holiday e.g. a week off. Actually apart from christmas day I cant remember when I took an entire day off e.g. didn't check email, do something quickly. It never ever leaves my mind for long anyway.

Believe me there is pressure if you don't perform - I am seen as a fairly good performer yet still feel immense pressure for my job.

I worked out that I probably get paid around £9 per hour if you take actual hours into account - not bad value for money at all when you think of the level of qualifications we need.

Its that flexibility which is the main thing keeping me in the job.

[CeliaChettam]

Xenia, I can afford childcare. I spend about 60-70 hours a week working in one form or another, I love my job and I'm as happy with my terms and conditions as anyone is ever likely to be (would be happier with less admin etc. but no job is perfect). I don't have a nanny because the flexibility of my job means I can have a demanding and fulfilling career and also spend five or six hours a day with my kids. I know I am employable in the private sector for a higher salary because I've been headhunted by institutions in countries that have private HE, so if you think the market value of a person's labour tells you what they are worth, tax-payer's money is not wasted on my salary. Some aspects of academia in some institutions are working very well, perhaps demonstrating to the private sector that parents are capable of high productivity, inspiring interaction with students and other taxpayers and producing knowledge that in some shape or form changes our world. If you think the taxpayer, who funds illegal wars and pays off failing banks, can't afford this, let's all pray you've nothing to do with the next government.

Though presumably an MP's salary isn't high enough to tempt you.

[Acinonyx]

Xenia - I don't want a job just for the money and I don't want full time childcare. I have to rationalise those two things somehow - which is hard. If I had to have full time childcare I would not go on - but it would pain me. It's not about affording childcare - we could pay for it if we wanted to. But I don't feel that full time childcare would suit my particular child - if she were a different kind of child - I might consider it.

There are not many slackers in academia. Not where I am for sure. The intense pressure to publish and long hours culture is a worry and I've seen it suck the enthusiasm out of people.

Similar to previous pps I am confident I could get flexible working at my current university (despite it's reputation to the contrary) because I have known the PIs I would be working with for a long time (and also know they are sympathetic to this kind of situation) and I would be doing (non-lab)research only which is easier to flex. My impression is that I could not count on that kind of support going anywhere new and would be unwise to even mention it at interview.

I am quite conflicted in myself over this. Part of me would love to just go full time and really throw myself into it - after all - it's been a hard slog getting to this point. But I didn't have dd when I started on this road. I really do think that she needs me - not generically because she is a child - because she's the kind of child she is and will need a bit more support than some children.

I think she needs me more than I need to be with her - and part of me hankers after the life and career I almost had. I might get a postdoc - I might even get two - but then I'll be done if I can't commit properly .

I just feel kind of lost in space.

[Acinonyx]

I left a higher paying profession to do this - but fortunately dh stayed

[hatwoman]

acinonyx...would it be very rude of me to ask how old you are? and how old you were when you started your PhD?

[Xenia]

But may be that's the slipperly slope - to stay home, take a mommy track and less pay, opt out of a full time job, take on more domestic and child things when the child doesn't near it, make a career harder to establish and in 20 years be regretting it.

My view has always been that part time work in some ways is the worst of all worlds for women - you end up having to work very full hours anyway and often children and husbands assume you're the domestic slave as well and your career is only the pin mone second income in the home so you lose the power that comes as a high full time earner on which the family depends.