Ribenaaaaah and other employment lawyers - Can you help me with a compromise agreement please?

[falsemoustacheandglasses]

I am in a horrible work situation (have namechanged because some people in RL know who I am) and I have been told I have good grounds for a sex discrimination claim against my employer, as well as breach of contract and if I were to resign constructive dismissal too - I'm just about hanging on in there.

I've managed to get them to consider a compromise agreement (don't much fancy Tribunal and I'm already not sleeping and feeling anxious) but I'm not sure what to do.

I am going to get some proper legal advice (but if anyone can recommend a shit-hot employment lawyer/firm in or around London I'd be very grateful!) but I just want to know what to expect.

Is it all sealed notes across the table with different figures being written down? Is there a proper calculation to do?

Can I include things like the cost of paying for my own training?

I have tried to get another job but tbh I'm not having much luck. Does that make a difference?

I am stressing out about the whole thing so really appreciate any words of wisdom.

[RibenaBerry]

Right, I'm in a hurry, but in a nutshell.

Compensation is almost entirely based on financial loss. Sit down and work out (on a net, not gross, basis) how much salary you think you will lose and any costs you will have to incur to find another job. You are generally looking somewhere between three months and a year for this. Any longer is generally pie in the sky . Where you fall on the spectrum is about the job you do, how specialised, how many opportunities, etc, rather than how badly you've been treated.

In addition, for discrimination you can get injury to feelings. This is worked out on something called the Vento scale (have a Google). You'd normally be looking somewhere in the low thousands (£5,000 is a common request).

Once you've got a total net figure, press for them to make the first offer. The tax can be quite complicated, so if you're not represented ask for a net number. It's not generally sealed notes across the table- more a long and tedious parade of emails and phone calls between you/your lawyer and them/their lawyer.

Hope that helps a bit.

[flowerybeanbag]

I am not an employment lawyer but will just add something anyway. Feel free to ignore! Obviously a settlement will be less than you might get at a tribunal, otherwise there's no incentive for your employer to settle.

The calculations and figures Ribena mentioned are a starting point for working out about how much you should hope for when it comes to making your decisions, but the bottom line is when negotiating a settlement it's all about balancing risk against costs. Your employer will pay as little as it can to prevent this going further and to get rid of you as a problem.

The fact that it sounds as though you have approached them for a settlement, indicating that you really don't fancy pursuing it anyway, will impact on how much they offer as they will think the chances of you actually taking it further if they don't offer a large amount will be slim.

[falsemoustacheandglasses]

Thank you thank you! (You too flowery)

I know a little bit about Vento scale and think £5000 is reasonable... but will ask for the top end of that bracket (£15,000) to leave room for negotiation.

I work in financial services so not exactly brimming over with opportunities! I have general management, project management and some HR experience. But I can't get even get an interview even for junior admin roles. It's really depressing.

This is my opening gambit - I still have the option to appeal the grievances I have made and go down the Tribunal route. I think they know I'm serious and have nothing to lose by pursuing a case (have legal cover on my home insurance). Of course there are advantages for me - all of this will be over and I can move on.

I applied for training - which they've ignored. To fund my own is about £9,000. If I ask for that too will they just laugh at me? It's not related to my current role but was on my career development plan.

They really don't want the press coverage that a Tribunal case would bring. They are a big multi-national who sponsor a very prestigious award for companies who are promoting women in the workplace . Oh the irony!

The union (of whom I'm not a member) are possibly going to bring a case on behalf of several women because discrimination against women who have taken maternity leave is rife in the part of the business I work in (which is about 6,500 employees).

[Wizpunzel]

A few additional suggestions:

Even if you confided in them that you might accept a compromise agreement/settlement - was this ever in writing? If not, you're entitled to change your view on this, caused by their behaviour.

Tribunal judges are very keen to banish discrimination of any kind and can be very claimant friendly if you have a genuine case. You could lodge a tribunal claim anyway (get advice on wording it from your lawyer) so it looks like you mean business. This will mean they have to respond to your claim and the core issues will be established. It might persuade them to be a bit more 'generous' if they make you an offer. You can always withdraw it later if they settle.

Don't underestimate your loss. In terms of working it out, consider what would be a reasonable period of time to get another job: you say times are hard in the financial services industry...so would that be 1 month, or 3 or 6? Base your net salary loss on that.

In terms of your training, would this have improved your chances of promotion i.e. a better job at higher salary? Include an estimate of the increase in your loss.

If you're in a pension scheme don't forget that and include the employer's contribution.

Keep a record of all the jobs you apply for and the correspondence. Include signing on with agencies etc. and keep copies of online applications that don't have the courtesy to reply! It all helps towards showing you've tried to mitigate your loss.

Of course all cases are judged on their own merits but one tip I had from an employment lawyer... if you are sensible about your schedule of loss, in most cases, you will get +/- 50% of what you ask for, if you win. Maybe slightly less if you settle but then you don't have to endure the tribunal. (BTW termination payments are tax-free up to £30K.)

Then, up your Vento for your terribly hurt feelings (esp. over the no training) Good Luck!
PS Don't forget to ask them for a glowing reference into the bargain.

[RibenaBerry]

Everything Flowery said ( thanks Flowery).

You can ask for training, if what you are saying is that you will get another job in that area more quickly than a job in your current industry (i.e. if it is cheaper overall). They are unlikely to stump up otherwise unless you have been forced out of the whole industry - e.g. discrimination in army= effectively forced out of industry and having to retrain because there are no other employers.

Yes, yes, yes, to being reasonable on your schedule of loss. Asking for three years' pay is as useless as giving no number at all. You need to leave room for negotiation, but you need to start in the right ball park, not across town from the stadium. Good point by Wizpunsel. You can bump up the Vento, but bear in mind that employment lawyers just sigh and put a mental line through it if it's in totally the wrong bracket. Better to go high within the right bracket like you/others were suggesting.

The point about filing a claim is a good one, but do bear in mind that it could delay a settlement. Very few employers will negotiate a settlement between the claim going in and their defence being filed. If they negotiate then it looks weak, panicky and only one side of the story has been told. Filing can therefore put negotiations on hold for more than a month (month to file, time for dust to settle), which you may not want if things are progressing...

[omaoma]

would say filing a claim is the last action to take, negotiations come first. not an employment lawyer at all but had to deal with a dodgy redundancy situation. i think you want to enter into a 'without prejudice' negotation so you leave your options open? but there are proper lawyers here who prob know more about that. one tip i had was to find out if your household/building insurance covers legal fees - that can be a good bargaining tool if your employer thinks you have nothing to lose by going to tribunal, extra incentive to settle. also, my household insurance lawyers offered free advice to me on my situation as part of the deal which was very useful.

[omaoma]

oh and Ashby Cohen Solicitors are supposed to be shit hot, they are based in London. Not cheap tho!

[falsemoustacheandglasses]

Thank you to everyone who has taken the time to post on this thread. Having been trying to get my employer to even talk to me in the last couple of months, with no success, it speaks volumes that you have made the effort.

I've now retained the services of a very good employment lawyer. I had been trying to get things sorted out on my home insurance which was taking an age and they're not really intested in doing anything until you've resigned. Yes, I've had to shell out some cash but that should be recoverable by the increase in my settlement. Hopefully!

I saw my lawyer late last week and she was excellent (as she should be, she charges like a wounded bull!). I now appreciate the enormous gulf between what should happen and the reality of will happen.

She is going to give me some advice on what to ask for (she told me Vento's been superceded by Da'Bell in terms of bandings).

I have a meeting this week with work. I will keep you updated as I hate it when people ask for advice and then you never hear from them again.

[flowerybeanbag]

ROFL at 'charges like a wounded bull'

[RibenaBerry]

Ha ha. Yes, we do rather don't we!

Sorry, had forgotten about highlighting da'Bell. It's not superceded Vento as such, just confirmed that that case (think it was about 2002) should be adjusted for inflation. We still always call it the Vento scale. It moves the top of the bottom bracket from about £5,000 to about £6,000 IIRC.

Glad things are moving along.

[falsemoustacheandglasses]

[falsemoustacheandglasses]

Right, I have an update. And I am sure there are many, many hundreds of people watching this thread just waiting for my return

It has been a torrid few weeks. My employer offered me a titchy settlement. My solicitor wrote them a stong letter. We went back and forth for a bit. They dragged it out so the legal fees went sky-high.

I have now, finally, got a settlement I am happy with and have spent about a month's wages on legal fees. Effectively my PILON has gone straight to the solicitor.

But, I HAVE WON! I HAVE WON! I HAVE WON!

Admittedly I have spent quite a lot of money but it was worth every single penny to keep a principle or two. Every time we got them to back down on some stupid petty point I WON.

tbh by the end we had a really good case for constructive dismissal because my employer didn't pay my salary last month which as final straws go is pretty good methinks. But I have some cash in my pocket and I can claim on my mortgage protection insurance so I am very happy.

I am off to put the fizz in the fridge and mentally prepare myself to sign on next month when my employment ends.

And for the record, I have been made redundant but with a bigger settlement than the redundancy policy. And I BEAT THEM.

Wooooohooooo!!!!!!!

[falsemoustacheandglasses]

Thank you to everyone who posted on this thread. You gave me courage when I was very low. You are all fabulous.

Blows kisses

[justanothermanicmummy]

Aw I missed this thread before but I love a happy ending. Well done you!

[carocaro]

FUCKING BRILL!!

I am so happy for you, congratulations! It's the moral victory that counts.

I hope to be writing a very similar thread very very soon, DH going through a constructive dismaissal case at present, all kicked off last July, ACAS are trying to get a settlement sorted, they owe him 30K, never paid last salary or expenses, told to leave on the Friday, all clients told he'd been sacked for gross misconduct on the Monday, never given the opportunity to refuke the bullshit allegations.

Your victory gives me hope. THANK YOU and well done.