Dh reckons he is going to get sacked next week - what the hell does he do for a reference?

[Tortington]

i have posted before about the history. dh's works are guning for him, he has already had a disciplinary wheich he refused to question, he didn't want to put in a grievance becuase he was scared they would sack him on some made up charges.

now he is sick, he really really is - its food poisoning - it really really is. stools ample to doctors this morning, doctor appt yesterday - he is genuinley ill.

despite being ill, he went to work this am and his manager said " you seem to be off an awful lot of mondays and fridays" this is untrue and dh has asked for a sickness record from HR.

this is like no other place - don't advise acas - we have enquired and dh has shit his luck becuase he didn't contest his (trumped up) disciplinary through fears of being sacked.

so. the options i have ran hrough with him today

1. hand in your notice - get a bad reference
   
2. go in next week - see if you get sacked - if you do - bad reference
   
   its just the shitest shittest situation to be in. He has an interview on friday of this week - but if he gets it ....then what
   
   see options above re reference.
   
   he hates lying - i am telling him to lie through his teeth and he doesn't want to do it.
   
   he has not always been the best DH in the world - but he has always genuinley worked hard, worked long hours and always put the effort in.
   
   i don't know what to advise him i really don't.
   
   there won't be any contesting it, thee wont be any lawyers - dh is broken - they broke him.

[LIZS]

I thought references these days we usually short and factual. So unless they have substantiated concerns whcih would be relevant to his application, it should simply confirm his dates of employment and job role. fingers crossed for Friday.

[itsmeolord]

He can get a character reference and use that as well as his bog standard work one.

So, he would ask someone he knows that will be willing to provide a character reference for him along the lines of him being trustworthy etc.
If his present employer were asked for a reference they would not be able to give a bad reference but would write and say x worked for us from y date to z date and had AB number of days sick.

He should try to be honest at his interview as well, ie say he is moving on because of a personality clash at work that he feels is detrimental to his furthering his career.
That way, if someone did try some funny business he would have pre empted it if you see what I mean.

[Tortington]

thanks thats really good to know

[flowerybeanbag]

It's a common misconception that an employer can't give a 'bad' reference. They can.

To avoid legal vulnerability a reference must be an accurate reflection of the person in question, and must be based on facts that can be substantiated. So while it would not be fine to suddenly raise concerns about someone's performance in a reference out of the blue, it would potentially be fine to mention specific concerns about performance that had been raised with the individual before, for example in appraisals, and that can be backed up with factual evidence.

A disciplinary record is certainly factual and his employer could certainly say 'Mr Custy was given a written warning on x date for xyz reason'. Reason for leaving is also crucial, and if he gets sacked it's perfectly reasonable and usual for his employer to say so on his reference.

Lots of employers do stick to very basic facts, dates of employment and similar limited information to keep themselves ultra-safe and avoid any potential for argument about details. But actually the fact that someone was for example dismissed rather than resigned could easily be mentioned as could overall disciplinary record, particularly as there was no appeal.

His best bet is to go for his interview, and any others that come up, impress them, and if he gets offered a job, he could then discuss the issue then with his potential line manager, explaining the problems he has had. That would be better than acting as though all is fine and the new employer suddenly getting a reference talking about his disciplinary warning and/or dismissal out of the blue.

Having a character reference available is a good back-up, but I would also advise if there is anyone in any position of authority at his current employers who might be prepared to give him a decent reference, he ask their permission to give their specific details for potential employers to write to. Or perhaps someone he's worked with but who no longer works at the company, something like that.

[Tortington]

there is dh - who is a manager - then there is senior management all from a takeover company - they don't like dh - who is from the former company - there is no one who is senior who could give the reference ( they all left mysteriously ). dh has left a message with HR to ask if perhaps the hr lady could do it - but the gossip is that she will just pass onto his manager.

due to the fact that dh is likely to get sacked next week - he is thinking of handing in his notice.

however we can't think of a decent excuse to tell future employers as to why he left.

i know that you have said to be honest - but no-one likes a trouble maker or someone who cant get along with collegues - and ( as someone who has sat t'other side of the table interviewing) i can honestly say that no matter how good the candidate - if the candidate said to me that they had trouble at their previous place of work - alarm bells would ring - and i probably wouldn't ofer them the job.

so he needs a plausible excuse (lie?) as to why he handed in his notice before getting another job.

so i guess i am asking.

do you think its the best thing to do - handing in notice before they can sack him - which is what he expects?

and

what excuse can he give for resigning one post before taking up another?

[Tortington]

the appeal for the disciplinary says that dh should reply within 5 days if he disagrees.

this has lapsed. by 2 weeks.

i wonder whether he should still reply to this. even though he has clearly signed that he agreed by the policy in the staff handbook

[Tortington]

bump

[LoveBeingAMummy]

I think that they can refuse to hear an apeeal thats out of the timescale, especially if there is no reason for the delay?

[Tortington]

He doesn't so much want them to hear it - as to put something official in place incase they mention it on the reference forms.

[Pekkala]

Poss reasons for resigning -

"I decided to resign as following the (hostile?) takeover of X, I felt that the new management were not supportive of my skills and input. I am looking for a position where I can use my extensive skills/ experience of XXX to XXX

I would say be honest (to a degree). Any company worth their salt will appreciate honesty and will understand that big changes in personnel happen after a big change in management (either people who jumped or were pushed)

Difficult decision - stay and fight (you might be morally right but will it cause problems for later employment?) or run (is his profession recruiting in the current market?)

[Pekkala]

sorry typos:
reason not reasons
& there should have been a " after "XXX to XXX"

[MABS]

shit Custy, no advice just big hugs to you both.

[flowerybeanbag]

He can make up a reason for leaving, but that doesn't get round the problem of the reference. If he can get a commitment from HR that a very basic factual reference giving dates of employment will be given, then yes he can make up something about reason for leaving and there may not be a problem.

But if he can't get that commitment, and he thinks there's a high probability that his disciplinary will be mentioned, that's where there could be a problem. You are right to think that if someone has had trouble at their previous work, alarm bells will always ring and it will definitely reduce his chances of getting jobs he goes for. But if his current employers will give details of that anyway, he won't have lost anything by giving a convincing explanation himself of what happened. If he mentions nothing and suddenly a reference arrives saying he has had a warning for x,y,z, it's possible a new employer may not give him the chance to explain and may just withdraw any offer straightaway anyway.

He could put in an appeal now - they will refuse to hear it as it's outside the timeline. He won't lose anything by doing so, however all that will enable him to do is tell a potential employer that he appealed it. They will then ask the outcome of the appeal, and may also want to know in that case why he left in the middle of the process.

[alwayslookingforanswers]

oh custy how crap - afraid I don't have any advice.

[Poledra]

I am no expert like flowery, but have often sat on the other side of the interviewing table. If they sack him based on his sick days, having the sickness record from the current HR dept and also a letter from his GP confirming his illness(es) would be helpful to me.

[Poledra]

Sorry, I don't mean for his GP to say what was wrong with him (that's not my business) but confirming that he was genuinely ill on XX/XX/XX.

[Tortington]

thanks v. much for the advice.
dh hasn't been ill often over the last 3 years.

however - he handed in a resignation letter via e-mail and has an appt to see his bully manager and a HR peep on tuesday.

[Earlybird]

Custy - so sorry you, dh and the entire family are faced with this unfair and stressful situation.

How long has your dh worked with this 'new' management team, and how long has he been with the company overall?

As a reason for leaving, would it suffice to simply say that he was hired by the former management team (who he worked very well with for X years). While he hoped he could make a go of things with this new group, it became clear they have a different approach and would prefer to hire their own people so it seemed best to leave - especially as virtually everyone from the 'old' team no longer works there? Or something along those lines. That way, your dh is not seeming disloyal, untrustworthy, unreliable or a poor worker - it is simply a matter of 'regime change' that ultimately led to his departure.

IMO, your dh should not get into a lengthy explanation about personality clashes, etc. That could make him sound like 'trouble' - just make it brief and matter-of-fact.

Disclaimer - I'm sure it is screamingly obvious that I am not an HR person!

[Tortington]

ty earlybird, he is going to ask about the reference on tuesday - if they say they will provide him with a basic reference - then he will leave it at that.

if they say they wont provide him with a basic reference, he will tell them that after speaking to acas and a free hour with an employment lawyer, they think that he has a good case for constructive dismissal - especially since the company hasn't given him the grievance forms after he asked for them twice - that the company can be seen as witholding this.

hopefully it wont come to the second option - which is all lies ( apart from withholding grievance procedure) which is a bluff to make them shit themselves.

he has a job interview today - right now

so fingers crossed for mr custy

[StealthPolarBear]

keeping fingers crossed
Let us know how he gets on

[Tortington]

will do

tyvm

[StealthPolarBear]

well? any news? or is it too early?

[Poledra]

Bump. Any news, Custy?

[TeeteringOnTheEdge]

Can he contact the old management team for a reference/s?