Furlough and annual leave

[HunterHearstHelmsley]

During the first two lockdowns, my workplace furloughed for childcare reasons. There was more than enough work, and we are key workers. It was a good will gesture from my employers.

We are just finalising summer annual leave. As a 'carrot', those not furloughed have been given annual leave priority for the next 2 years.

The shit is starting to hit the fan. I have 2.5 weeks book in the summer, October half term and Christmas - New Year booked. Its fairly similar across the board for others with priority. Parents are now insisting that our leave be cancelled so they can take the time. Unions are being involved and management are having conversations.

Am I correct in thinking that our leave cannot be cancelled in order for someone else to take it? I understand leave can be cancelled with double the amount of notice. Is this for only business critical reasons or can it be to give someone else the leave?

Currently I am only away for 1.5 weeks of the time I have booked (it's mainly to spend time with family children). I would consider swapping the time I have off, but I would want either extra pay or leave to do so.

[flowery]

You are not correct I’m afraid, there’s nothing specifically stating that there must be good reasons for cancelling it.

However I think cancelling leave just to give it to someone else without there being any good business reason could well be a breach of trust and confidence. Your contract is formed of express terms (those specifically agreed and usually written down) and implied terms. Implied terms aren’t written down but are just as important and there is an implied term in every employment contract that both parties will act with trust and confidence, which is really about integrity and good faith, that sort of thing.

I would be pushing back very hard on this and I would use the term “breach of trust and confidence” as well.

[HunterHearstHelmsley]

Ah darn. That's frustrating!

I'll raise a grievance if it came to it but would rather avoid that if possible.

Its such a pain that we have been given something (without asking) as a "thank you" and now it's becoming a hassle.

[HunterHearstHelmsley]

Thank you @

[HunterHearstHelmsley]

Thank you @flowery

[EarringsandLipstick]

I hope I've understood this correctly.

If I have, I think it's really unfair.

Why should those who were not furloughed get priority for annual leave? Did everyone furloughed want to be furloughed? How was it a good will gesture to furlough people in the first place.

It's completely unfair that this reward means that some staff will not be able to take leave at all the key family times, like Christmas, Easter and so on.

This should not be the determinant for taking leave.

If a 'carrot' is needed, and I'm not sure why it would be, it needs to be better thought through.

[SpamIAm]

The flip side of the carrot is that the stick for everyone else is that they're not able to take their annual leave in the school holidays, just creating yet more childcare problems for them, which is why they were furloughed in the first place. Really really unfair and no wonder the unions are getting involved.

[HunterHearstHelmsley]

@EarringsandLipstick

I hope I've understood this correctly.

If I have, I think it's really unfair.

Why should those who were not furloughed get priority for annual leave? Did everyone furloughed want to be furloughed? How was it a good will gesture to furlough people in the first place.

It's completely unfair that this reward means that some staff will not be able to take leave at all the key family times, like Christmas, Easter and so on.

This should not be the determinant for taking leave.

If a 'carrot' is needed, and I'm not sure why it would be, it needs to be better thought through.

Yes, they did want to be furloughed. We were actually busier than ever. It's been really difficult for those left working. Our workload increased, then increased some more because of furloughed staff. We couldn't take leave so we were promised priority.

[TeacupDrama]

Your employer can tell you precisely when to take your annual leave in some work places it is precise like weeks 1 and 2 in august and 2 weeks at Christmas, others have seasonal rules like you can't take holidays in December in retail or March for accountants or June to August in a caravan park or not during lambing or harvest. Some places need x number of staff every week so leave has to be balanced evenly through year so someone is off 3rd week in February as well as 3rd week July as work load constant. My sisters last employer had a rule that a minimum of two weeks had to be taken during term time and a max of 2 weeks in school summer holiday and it had to be complete weeks not odd days as that would stop someone else getting a full week, they were very fair like if you had easter you wouldn't get may week but might get October everyone had to work either Christmas eve, Christmas day or boxing day if you worked Christmas day you got first choice on whether you wanted new year off.
I think giving the staff that worked first dibs is fair enough but there should still be a limit on how much is school holidays I think if some people have booked all the best weeks then it is reasonable to cancel some to give other people a better choice, can your work place realistically operate with 75% of the staff wanting the same 12 , 13 weeks of the year . One person getting 2 weeks at Christmas October half term and a good chunk of summer holidays seems unfair to me however long ago they booked it

[HunterHearstHelmsley]

@SpamIAm

The flip side of the carrot is that the stick for everyone else is that they're not able to take their annual leave in the school holidays, just creating yet more childcare problems for them, which is why they were furloughed in the first place. Really really unfair and no wonder the unions are getting involved.

The childcare wasn't available. It is now. Obviously there is a cost involved. It was goodwill as furlough wasn't needed for the company. We are keyworkers so childcare was available.

There's a bunch of burnt out people that aren't really feeling much sympathy at the moment.

Social media posts of them having a great time on full pay whilst you're slogging your guts out doesn't create much goodwill.

[HunterHearstHelmsley]

Should say childcare would have been available, if requested etc. Not was available.

[HunterHearstHelmsley]

@TeacupDrama

Your employer can tell you precisely when to take your annual leave in some work places it is precise like weeks 1 and 2 in august and 2 weeks at Christmas, others have seasonal rules like you can't take holidays in December in retail or March for accountants or June to August in a caravan park or not during lambing or harvest. Some places need x number of staff every week so leave has to be balanced evenly through year so someone is off 3rd week in February as well as 3rd week July as work load constant. My sisters last employer had a rule that a minimum of two weeks had to be taken during term time and a max of 2 weeks in school summer holiday and it had to be complete weeks not odd days as that would stop someone else getting a full week, they were very fair like if you had easter you wouldn't get may week but might get October everyone had to work either Christmas eve, Christmas day or boxing day if you worked Christmas day you got first choice on whether you wanted new year off.
I think giving the staff that worked first dibs is fair enough but there should still be a limit on how much is school holidays I think if some people have booked all the best weeks then it is reasonable to cancel some to give other people a better choice, can your work place realistically operate with 75% of the staff wanting the same 12 , 13 weeks of the year . One person getting 2 weeks at Christmas October half term and a good chunk of summer holidays seems unfair to me however long ago they booked it

I get it might seem unfair but it was what was offered to stop us taking leave during the thick of it. It seems wrong to now say otherwise. I would have insisted on taking at least my minimum legal right last year if I'd been expected to take the dregs now.

[Crazycatlady83]

What is the work place normal policy? Is it first come first served or do you run a points based system (for example) It seems very unfair that a certain "category" of employee (parents in this case) can insist on certain holiday days and everyone else has to suck it up?

[HunterHearstHelmsley]

@Crazycatlady83

What is the work place normal policy? Is it first come first served or do you run a points based system (for example) It seems very unfair that a certain "category" of employee (parents in this case) can insist on certain holiday days and everyone else has to suck it up?

First come first served with negotiation.

For instance, Beth wants the second week of August off, but needs to make sure Sarah is around that week. Sarah says no because she wants the week off. In that case, neither would have the week off unless they agreed.

It usually works pretty well.

I wanted the 16th May off the year before last as its my nephews birthday. I checked with my work mate, she also wanted it off as it was her wedding anniversary (an important one). We worked it out between us.

[HunterHearstHelmsley]

As far as I've been told, the plan was known to everyone. I think there was an assumption that it wouldn't actually happen.

[DancesWithDaffodils]

I suspect it is also complicated by the fact that those not furloughed have carried over holiday, if I've u understood you correctly.
So in a normal year, if most of you get most of what you want, those needing childcare during lockdown (2 key workers here, and couldn't access a school place for our 9 year old, btw) may have taken the risk. But if everyone who carried on working now has an extra week of leave to take, and it could be making availability very tight.

[DancingQueen85]

Do you have children? If not then I'm perplexed as to why you would want to take so much time off in the school holidays. I suspect that after a very challenging year your furloughed colleagues with children would appreciate the opportunity to spend some with their kids over the school holidays

[HunterHearstHelmsley]

@DancingQueen85

Do you have children? If not then I'm perplexed as to why you would want to take so much time off in the school holidays. I suspect that after a very challenging year your furloughed colleagues with children would appreciate the opportunity to spend some with their kids over the school holidays

I have nieces and nephews of school age that I want to spend time with. I've been so looking forward to it. It was worth the hit of no proper leave next year.


I'm perplexed that my furloughed colleagues would expect me to give up even more for them.

[DancingQueen85]

@HunterHearstHelmsley
You sound very bitter. I suspect you took leave during the school holidays just to spite them
A couple of days to spend with your nieces and nephews would suffice surely

[HunterHearstHelmsley]

[quote DancingQueen85]@HunterHearstHelmsley
You sound very bitter. I suspect you took leave during the school holidays just to spite them
A couple of days to spend with your nieces and nephews would suffice surely [/quote]
No. I'm looking forward to spending time with them. They are my absolute priority.

The spite is coming from people expecting me to give up what I have been promised just because they feel they should have it instead.

An agreement was put in place.

That comment has made me surer in my stance. I agreed to work ridiculous amounts to make someone else's life easier. Now it is their turn.

Thank you for the clarity.

[CliftonGreenYork]

[quote DancingQueen85]@HunterHearstHelmsley
You sound very bitter. I suspect you took leave during the school holidays just to spite them
A couple of days to spend with your nieces and nephews would suffice surely [/quote]
I think she sounds perfectly lovely and is totally right to take her holidays when she wants if she is entitled to.

[DancingQueen85]

So your enjoyment at spending time with your nieces and nephews comes above the children of your colleagues getting to spend time with their parents during the holidays. You're very selfish.
Also FYI I highly doubt that your colleagues were having lots of fun whilst on furlough. Lockdown was absolute hell for every single parent I know

[HunterHearstHelmsley]

@DancingQueen85

So your enjoyment at spending time with your nieces and nephews comes above the children of your colleagues getting to spend time with their parents during the holidays. You're very selfish.
Also FYI I highly doubt that your colleagues were having lots of fun whilst on furlough. Lockdown was absolute hell for every single parent I know

But they aren't selfish for expecting me to give up a much awaited break?

I've worked my tits off on several huge projects, I've worked extra hours and picked up the slack whenever and wherever it is needed.

Now, I need a rest. I want to take that rest with my nieces and nephews that I've rarely been able to see for over a year.

If hasn't just been a pandemic for parents. I'm not going to be a martyr in this instance.

[HunterHearstHelmsley]

@CliftonGreenYork

Thank you. I'm just asking for what was promised to us.

I miss my family as much as everyone else. I've been counting down the days until I can spend a decent chunk of time with them.

[HermioneWeasley]

I’d be furious in your shoes OP (another key worker here who’s in desperate need of a break).

While they can do it, they are seriously harming goodwill with employees who went above and beyond, which is an odd employee relations strategy

[user1493494961]

Well said Op, enjoy your holidays.