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Holidays and Overtime

(20 Posts)
Sparkles512 Tue 01-Sep-20 19:58:58

Hi,
Can anyone help please as I am a little confused about my holiday pay!
I am contracted for 18 hours a week but since I went back from lockdown in May I have worked between 32 and 40 hours a week.
I was told I would have extra pay for the hours rather than added holiday days.
I get 101 hours holiday and work 936 hours a year to get those holidays
I've worked 276 extra hours over the last 3 months and got 4p extra an hour.
HR are saying this is correct but I don't feel its right as 101 x 4p is £4.04 for the year extra!
Can anyone shed any light on how I can work out if this is the correct amount please?
Thank you!

OP’s posts: |
daisychain01 Wed 02-Sep-20 07:15:13

I've worked 276 extra hours over the last 3 months and got 4p extra an hour

Was that 4p extra, on top of your hourly rate? If they remunerated you for the 276 hours you worked extra, at your normal hourly rate, then that's fair. Better than TOIL if you are already on shorter hours. If they only paid you 4p / hour extra, that is definitely not fair! But maybe I've read it wrong.

Does your contract include any mention of overtime?

daisychain01 Wed 02-Sep-20 07:18:13

Did you get clearance in advance from your manager to work those extra hours? If you didn't, that could be a problem. My employer states that any overtime must be preagreed because of the financial implication. Often we are asked to take TOIL rather than actual payment.

Sparkles512 Wed 02-Sep-20 07:36:28

@daisychain01 yes I was basically told I had no choice and have to do the overtime to cover maternity and holidays for other staff!
These extra hours should continue until January but nothing in writing so I'm worried the amount they owe me for holiday will keep adding up and they won't pay me correctly.
Yes the 4p is all I'm getting extra in my holiday pay which to me isn't right I think I am entitled to just over 29 hours holiday pay which equates to over £250 in holiday pay!
HR are saying that the 4p increase is correct because its based on last year's hour when I was doing 18 hours.
Which to me makes no sense as I have a contract for 18 hours and 101 holiday hours.
I could understand on a zero hour contract as they calculate it from hours worked prior to holiday leave.

OP’s posts: |
HasaDigaEebowai Wed 02-Sep-20 07:39:08

They pay you the extra for your overtime as overtime pay.

Then on top of that your holiday pay gets increased a little bit to reflect the fact that you actually earn more than your contracted salary because you've worked compulsory overtime.

So you should get the overtime pay PLUS the little bit extra of holiday pay.

FippertyGibbett Wed 02-Sep-20 07:39:46

If I work overtime I don’t get any extra holidays, I just get paid my usual hourly rate.

HasaDigaEebowai Wed 02-Sep-20 07:41:04

The law on increased holiday pay only applies where the overtime is compulsory (broadly). I'm an employment solicitor

HasaDigaEebowai Wed 02-Sep-20 07:46:01

Before someone jumps in - yes it can apply to voluntary overtime but that's when its regular enough to count as "normal remuneration"

MadameBlobby Wed 02-Sep-20 07:52:56

HasaDigaEebowai

The law on increased holiday pay only applies where the overtime is compulsory (broadly). I'm an employment solicitor

No it’s not. It’s where it’s regular.

OP you should get paid for the OT and when you take the holiday your rate of pay should take account of the overtime too.

HasaDigaEebowai Wed 02-Sep-20 08:21:13

Yes I said that but didn't want to confuse the situation since the OP had already said hers was compulsory

MadameBlobby Wed 02-Sep-20 08:24:12

HasaDigaEebowai

Yes I said that but didn't want to confuse the situation since the OP had already said hers was compulsory

👍

MidnightCitrus Wed 02-Sep-20 11:31:24

Everywhere I have worked, when someone works part time hours, as far as i know, its normal time (poss with extra holiday - dont know about that to be honest) up to the standard working week, then overtime rates.

Otherwise, everyone would become part time and work overtime.

4p an hour is not right at all though to cover for holiday

www.wiggin.co.uk/content/uploads/2016/10/Holiday-Pay-playing-the-percentages.pdf

Logically you should get an extra 12.07% (to cover holiday)

www.pureemploymentlaw.co.uk/if-you-use-the-12-07-method-for-holiday-pay-you-need-to-read-this/

Read this - it talks about how to calculate

Moondust001 Wed 02-Sep-20 12:37:30

I don't think it's actually as clear cut as people think. The OP was "basically told" they had to do overtime. That's usually interpreted as "It's not voluntary but try proving that"! Compulsory overtime is generally contractual - because if it isn't then the employer has no leverage to force someone to do it. What I would lay bets is actually the case is that the OP was leaned on - and didn't say no I'm not doing it, as is their right unless overtime is contractual. And the minute the OP makes a claim, they will be tills that it was voluntary, they won't be able to prove it wasn't, they'll never get overtime again, and may find that they are redundant in the near future.

Not fair, but that's often the way. If the OP really wants to push this then they need evidence, and they also need to be prepared for the risk.

daisychain01 Wed 02-Sep-20 12:53:40

That said @Moondust001, the OP should get remunerated their normal hourly rate for the overtime hours they've worked, right?

It sounds like they are getting a 4p uplift and that's all. They're being shafted out of all those extra hours, and it's likely to continue, from what they've posted.

Hopefully the OP has kept an accurate record of the dates and additional hours worked, for them to pay what they owe. Angry on your behalf OP!

Moondust001 Wed 02-Sep-20 14:10:28

daisychain01

That said *@Moondust001*, the OP should get remunerated their normal hourly rate for the overtime hours they've worked, right?

It sounds like they are getting a 4p uplift and that's all. They're being shafted out of all those extra hours, and it's likely to continue, from what they've posted.

Hopefully the OP has kept an accurate record of the dates and additional hours worked, for them to pay what they owe. Angry on your behalf OP!

Oh I agree. I didn't read it that way, but I realise now it isn't clear. I read it as the OP is getting their hourly rate plus 4p for overtime hours. Surely the employer isn't stupid enough to think that they can pay someone 4p an hour?

The way I read it the OP is being paid their hourly rate plus 4p as a sort of "overtime allowance" - which is still a shifty rate, but actually many employers pay nothing other than the hourly rate, especially if you aren't over the normal "full-time" hours. The OPs argument is that if they got holiday based on those hours, it would be worth more to them. And that is correct, it would. But they may not be entitled to that holiday on legal grounds - and the crux of that is whether the overtime is legally compulsory or not. Unfortunately, since the employer isn't going to give them what they want, they only way to test this would be to make a claim.

daisychain01 Wed 02-Sep-20 14:21:00

Yes, I did struggle a bit trying to make out what had happened smile

Realistically, at a time like this, getting paid overtime is 'not to be sniffed at' so to speak, and provided they do pay the OP an hourly rate for their overtime, that's as fair as they can expect. It's about picking your battles!

HasaDigaEebowai Wed 02-Sep-20 14:39:25

The op is getting paid for her overtime. On top of that her holiday pay is being adjusted upwards to reflect the fact that her annual income taking the compulsory overtime into account is actually bit higher than it was previously and so her holiday pay gets increased.

Margaritatime Mon 07-Sep-20 18:38:56

Case law states regular voluntary overtime does attract holiday pay. If you have worked extra hours since May they would struggle to argue it's not regular.

Basically if you are contracted to work 18 hours a week but are working 32 hours every week, when you take a weeks leave (18 hours annual leave) you should receive 32 hours pay for that week.

It is more complicated as you have only worked extra hours from May and these are averaged over the year prior to the leave.

18 X 52 is 936 hours
If you take a weeks annual leave 7 to 11 Sept add up the hours you have actually worked for the 52 weeks from 9/9/2019 to 6/9/2020.
Deduct 936 and then divide the remainder by 52
This is the number of hours extra you should be paid for the weeks holiday.

Repeat for each period of leave using the 52 weeks immediately before the period of leave.

Sparkles512 Mon 07-Sep-20 19:03:30

@Margaritatime thank you I will get have a look at those calculations!
It baffles me that the year prior makes a difference seeing as you get a yearly entitlement of 101 hours

OP’s posts: |
Margaritatime Mon 07-Sep-20 20:11:46

It's due to the Employment Rights Act Amendment which sets out how to calculate holiday pay when hours vary from week to week.

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