Any redundancy experts out there please?

[Sally99]

My boss is closing his small limited company because business has fallen and I am being made redundant after 20 years. He has got a job working in a similar but much larger company and has managed to persuade the new company to employ me too.

Am I still entitled to redundancy when my boss closes his company or is this waived because he has found me a job working in the same department as him in the new company?

I would be grateful for any advice on this as if he can wriggle out of a payment, he will.

[Sally99]

Sorry, it should read: Am I still entitled to redundancy pay?

[AriettyHomily]

No.

[Rhubardandcustard]

I’m not an expert op but maybe speak to citizens advice. You need to make sure you are being TUPE across to your new employer. I believe this will protect all your current employment contract including length of service in case the new company make you redundant in future. Please be careful and take expert legal advice, you don’t want to miss out on 20 years worth of redundancy pay.

[maxelly]

So far as I know, unless the new company is buying his business and your employment is therefore being transferred to the new company with T&Cs, continuity of service etc preserved OR the old company will continue under an umbrella/parent company banner with you as sole employee (and again therefore you will keep your current T&Cs) you should be entitled to redundancy. Your boss can offer you suitable alternative employment as an alternative to making you redundant but as far as I know this needs to be with the same employer (except in cases like the NHS where continuity of service and T&Cs can be preserved between technically separate employers)...

[flowery]

It depends entirely. If your role is being transferred to the new company under TUPE, then no - your employment will be continuous on the same terms and conditions.

If your role is ending and your boss separately has got a job and has happened to get you a job, which is what it sounds like, then it's not a TUPE transfer and yes you're entitled to redundancy pay.

So you need to establish is it that the company is being effectively bought by the new company, and all the work/clients etc transferring. Or is it that it is ceasing trading and the new job is nothing to do with the work moving across.

[Sally99]

Arietty, are you saying that I'm not entitled to redundancy pay?

[Sally99]

To clarify, I will not be employed at all by my boss in the new company. The new company will employ me.

[Sally99]

Further, my current boss will now become employed by the new company just as I will be.

[ChateauMargaux]

In that case, you are entitled to redundancy but if you employer is insolvent, you may need to apply to the government to receive what is due to you.

www.gov.uk/your-rights-if-your-employer-is-insolvent/what-you-can-get

[Ishoos]

Suggest you call ACAS for advice. As per previous posts I think it depends on if you are being TUPEd to the new role. If you’re not then you should still get redundancy.

[maxelly]

The key thing to clarify is not who will employ you (as you say, this is clearly company 2) but the basis of your (and boss's) employment at company 2.

Is it a transfer of your current employment or is company 2 treating this as an offer of employment as they would do for any other new recruit? Are they giving you a brand new contract of employment on their normal T&Cs, for instance, or are you transferring on your current contract under TUPE? The nuances of the difference between the 2 may not be that clear to a non-HR/employment law person but it makes a big difference. Under the former you lose your continuity of service meaning they could dismiss you any time in the first 2 years for pretty much any reason, without having any recourse to claim unfair dismissal, if you were made redundant if company 2 goes bust any payment would only be based on whatever service you had from this year onwards, not your previous 20 years service, you might well have to go through a new probation period, you don't have any protection in terms of the pension scheme they offer if your old one was better, and essentially they can offer you any salary and terms they like without reference to your previous contract (just as if you'd applied for the job as any other candidate).

So if it is not a TUPE but an ending of your employment at one place and a starting of a brand new employment at another, you should get your redundancy pay. Whereas if it is a TUPE transfer you have substantial protection of your employment rights (but would not be entitled to a redundancy payment from old employer). Basically it should be one or another, they can't really have it both ways...

[Sally99]

Thank you for all the replies, I really appreciate it.

It is similar to me leaving a job in the local independent retailer and going to work for a huge name like John Lewis or M&S. My old boss is being given the the job of head of department and I will be an employee in his department along with others already there.

I do not have a contract in my current job. I will have a very detailed contract in my new job. The new company have agreed to match my salary.

[Florencex]

@Sally99

Thank you for all the replies, I really appreciate it.

It is similar to me leaving a job in the local independent retailer and going to work for a huge name like John Lewis or M&S. My old boss is being given the the job of head of department and I will be an employee in his department along with others already there.

I do not have a contract in my current job. I will have a very detailed contract in my new job. The new company have agreed to match my salary.

You still haven’t clarified the nature of the arrangement. Big companies sometimes acquire smaller independent ones. If that is what has happened, then you would be TUPE’d across and in that case if you turn it down (assuming it doesn’t mean a move across the country or something) then this would be a resignation not a redundancy.

If your old boss has simply found another job and persuaded them to take you as well, but has not actually sold the business to the new employer, then yes you are entitled to redundancy.

[Moondust001]

@Sally99

Thank you for all the replies, I really appreciate it.

It is similar to me leaving a job in the local independent retailer and going to work for a huge name like John Lewis or M&S. My old boss is being given the the job of head of department and I will be an employee in his department along with others already there.

I do not have a contract in my current job. I will have a very detailed contract in my new job. The new company have agreed to match my salary.

This is a very strange set up so I think you need to be very clear about this. If the new company has bought out the old company, it should be a TUPE or possibly a simple continuation of contract, depending on the terms of the "purchase of the company". If it isn't one of these - both of which protect your existing employment terms but there is no redundancy pay - then it appears to be strange that the new employer is taking on a person, their old member of staff AND agreeing to match the pay. It could happen, but it's really unusual.

You did have a contract in your old job - everyone does. It just wasn't detailed in writing (which it should have been).

I don't think anyone can usefully advise until you are certain about how this arrangement has been created. There are different ways in which companies can take over or buy out others, and it isn't clear whether any of them apply or not.

[Sally99]

You have all been a great help as now I know what it hinges on and the correct terminology.

Thank you

[GazingAndGrazing]

Mr Smith owned “Smith’s Electrics” and employed Sally as a counter assistant. Sally has worked for Mr Smith for 20 years.

Mr Smith is closing the shop due to a full in profit.

Mr Smith has found a new job with John Lewis and recommenced Sally for an assistant role and Sally luckily received an offer of employment with John Lewis.

As Sally didn’t have a contract with Mr Smith’s electrical ltd she is entitled to statutory redundancy pay www.citizensadvice.org.uk/work/leaving-a-job/redundancy/redundancy-pay/