Legal Advice: Work Provider To Self Employed Acting Unlawfully?

(22 Posts)
DodgyAgent Mon 22-Jul-19 19:35:13

I'm sorry I haven't updated yet. DD is stopping over at a friend's house and I've been poorly so we haven't had the chance to talk in detail.
Your help hasn't gone unappreciated. 🙂

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Littlejets Sun 21-Jul-19 21:25:55

I stand corrected blushgrin

Comefromaway Sun 21-Jul-19 20:52:21

It’s not the person, it’s the job. You have to fulfill certain conditions for HMRC to class you as self employed. Its possible to be employed in one job and self employed for another client.

Littlejets Sun 21-Jul-19 20:09:16

@pelirocco123...I'm not sure where you have got this information from but anyone can be self employed.

NoBaggyPants Sun 21-Jul-19 17:22:25

You have to show you are working for several employers be free to pick your own working hours and provide your own tools needed to do the job

They're all elements that form part of the test for self employment, but you don't have to satisfy every one, and in practice HMRC do very few checks. Most GPs are self employed, but almost none would fit that criteria.

NoBaggyPants Sun 21-Jul-19 17:19:00

If this chap is genuinely dodgy he'll already have a list of CCJs to his name. Definitely send an invoice, but don't throw time and money (if she's not exempt from fees) on someone who couldn't care less about paying his debts.

The £50 deduction is not valid here because it does not form part of the agreement between the parties, but OP you might be surprised how common such a clause is. Many courier firms have this clause with their drivers, although some have dropped it since a DPD driver died because he couldn't afford to take time off when he was unwell.

The gig economy is shit, but the government won't do anything because it makes their employment figures look good.

pelirocco123 Sun 21-Jul-19 17:15:44

You cannot just go self employed. HMRC have strict criteria covering who is allowed to be self employed
You have to show you are working for several employers be free to pick your own working hours and provide your own tools needed to do the job

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Comefromaway Sun 21-Jul-19 17:11:53

I agree the difficulty can be enforcing a judgment. However sometimes just a nicely worded letter before claim along with a photocopy of the small claims firm is enough to get the payment.

Littlejets Sun 21-Jul-19 17:10:29

He can't really deduct anything lawfully then.

DodgyAgent Sun 21-Jul-19 17:09:31

Thank you @Comefromaway , that's very helpful and one heck of a lot better than DD giving middleman a right royal rollicking!

She's out of phone contact atm which is why it's me asking the questions. I'll send her a link to the thread and as soon as she's within range again she can decide which route to take and update (and thank) you herself.

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NoBaggyPants Sun 21-Jul-19 17:09:32

How much is she owed, and can she evidence that she has worked the hours claimed?

Security work is commonly self employed. That's not to say that it shouldn't be on an employed basis, but going to a tribunal in order to establish her status is a lot of hard work for very little gain.

A small claims action would be far simpler, as long as she has sufficient evidence of the work done. However even if she gets an award, enforcing it in order to get payment is a whole other matter.

If this only comes down to £50, I'd let it go.

Comefromaway Sun 21-Jul-19 17:02:15

I’d advise her to send a written breakdown of hours worked and sums due anyway (she can call it an invoice or application for payment if she likes). Also if she’s got anything at all in writing (email etc) regarding the agreed payment rate etc.

She could take a couple of routes. Either threaten to go to an employment tribunal for unlawful deduction of wages on the basis that she “should” be employed not self-employed or small claims for a business to business non payment for services.

DodgyAgent Sun 21-Jul-19 16:58:10

She's signed nothing at all.
She doesn't invoice, she was told what she'd be paid per hour and she should receive it in her bank by the beginning of August.

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Littlejets Sun 21-Jul-19 16:51:27

Has she signed anything that states he is able to deduct wages for whatever reasons??

Comefromaway Sun 21-Jul-19 16:47:49

It’s like any other contract. She agreed to provide her services for an agreed amount of money. If he does not pay her then she can take legal action. Does she invoice?

Comefromaway Sun 21-Jul-19 16:45:33

I’d suggest putting in writing that if payment is withheld for the work she has already undertaken then she will be taking him to small claims including any costs incurred. Assuming she has not signed anything that includes a penalty clause for not carrying out work she is entitled to cancel her services.

Don’t worry about her not having registered as sElf employed yet, there is a timescale within which she can do so.

Hoppinggreen Sun 21-Jul-19 16:39:58

Well he doesn’t need to does he? What can she do?
I’m sorry to be negative and obviously I think she should pay her but there is absolutely no way she can make him
He sounds dodgy so I would just chalk it up to experience

DodgyAgent Sun 21-Jul-19 16:30:32

I don't think DD is looking to report middle man as much as to shake him into realising that he needs to pay her what she's owed.

She's looking for a way of achieving that aim without going into a tirade.

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Hoppinggreen Sun 21-Jul-19 16:23:55

I wasn’t suggesting she was but if she wants to report someone she needs to have done everything should have herself
I very much doubt she was self employed but for so little money I very much doubt it’s worth the hassle of doing anything other than reporting this man to HMRC

DodgyAgent Sun 21-Jul-19 16:18:29

She has only in the past three weeks started to do any work on a self-employed basis.
She was offered work for pretty much the next day and therefore didn't have the opportunity to register as self-employed. She returned from the event and has since been ill so still it hasn't been done although I must make it clear that she has no intention of not declaring what she has earned so far.

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Hoppinggreen Sun 21-Jul-19 16:06:28

Is she registered as self employed? Has she done a tax return etc?
This man can probably not legally keep the £50 but the cost of your Dd trying to get it back isn’t worth it

DodgyAgent Sun 21-Jul-19 16:01:19

My early 20s DD works in security. She recently accepted work from a middle man who offered £10ph on a self employed basis. Middle man gets the contracts (events, gigs, festivals etc) and supplies the staff.

A combination of recent illness, the cost of commuting to events 100s of miles away, and other issues has made DD decide that she no longer wants to work for middleman.

Before becoming ill last week DD had verbally agreed to work for middle man at the other end of the country. She would be due to travel to the event tomorrow.

Middle man is struggling to get personnel for this event as he's now WhatsApped the whole group of potential workers and told them that if they don't work they will be "fined" £50 each from their last earnings, which are due to be paid at the beginning of next month.

DD won't be giving in to his threats. She's furious. Also, it now seems quite possible that she isn't self-employed at all but that this is simply a way of middle man taking a big cut and avoiding having to pay tax and NI for the personnel he supplies.

Please can someone help with a suitable response to middleman which will make the legal repercussions of withholding DD's extremely hard earned money very clear to him?

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