deductions and minimum wage

(15 Posts)
user1471461798 Fri 07-Sep-18 20:44:04

Can a company take deductions for training and not pay you for the day you did the training if that then takes you below minimum wage for the hours worked.

OP’s posts: |
nerdsville Fri 07-Sep-18 20:53:34

Some deductions don't count towards minimum wage calculations so you'd need to give a bit more info to say one way or the other. For example, if you signed a training agreement with your employer agreeing to repay study costs if you left with a certain timeframe, then left and they took the course fee back from your final pay, this deduction wouldn't count for minimum wage calculations.

Can you elaborate on the circumstances?

user1471461798 Fri 07-Sep-18 21:09:38

Basically I left last week, failed my probation but knew i’d never pass it, other colleagues made it impossible. Anyway I attended a training course provided by my employer, I signed a document to agree the deductions for the course. They have deducted the course cost( more then they charge other people). But they have also taken a days wage as well. I didn’t have a copy of the agreement- never given one, Asked for a copy and suddenly the days wage deduction was on there- handwritten. When I have worked out hourly rate I am being paid less than 6.50 an hour

OP’s posts: |
user1471461798 Fri 07-Sep-18 21:12:09

I have worked out even if I just took the days wage off and agreed to the cost of the training, i’m still being paid less than minimum wage.

OP’s posts: |
nerdsville Sat 08-Sep-18 11:57:43

Did the document you signed state the amount of the training fees you'd have to repay or did it literally just say training fees and not show any figures? I'm asking this as you mention they've charged other people different amounts.

To be watertight, these training agreements are supposed to be really clear, so if it didn't state a figure you could try to go back and argue that it's not enforceable as it's not clear enough and you could certainly argue that the day's pay was added on after you'd signed it (point out you haven't initialled the added line).

It's probably worth a letter disputing the deduction as being unlawful if the agreement was wishy washy, but the minimum wage argument is a red herring as if it's a legitimate deduction then it doesn't count towards nmw calcs.

The problem really is that if they come back and say they stand by the terms of the agreement and it's all fine, the only way to get a final resolution as to whether the agreement is enforceable (and therefore whether the deductions are lawful or not) is to take it to tribunal or court for a verdict.

Definitely worth sending a letter though in the first instance and see what they say. I'd certainly be arguing for the day's pay back on the grounds this was added to the agreement after it was signed.

user1471461798 Sat 08-Sep-18 12:38:10

Thank you for your reply, so if I agree to the training course deduction, which I did agree to. The amount I was paid still doesn’t amount to minimum wage with the days wage taken off. Would that still count towards the calculations?

OP’s posts: |
Lazypuppy Sat 08-Sep-18 14:03:39

Deduction of cost doesn't have anything to do with minimum wage.

You have been paid gourly wages. Because you are leaving within a certain timescale ypu have to pay back the cost of the course which is a lump figure.

To me they are seperate.

I have the same clause in my contract, if i peave within 2 years i have to pay back 4k training cost

Sofizzy Sat 08-Sep-18 14:21:36

So they didn't pay you for the day that you were at the training? Is that correct? Was that agreed before?

nerdsville Sat 08-Sep-18 14:33:55

You need to forget about the minimum wage aspect and focus in whether the deductions they made are lawful or not.

If you signed a training contract stating that you agreed that if you left within x number of weeks you would repay £200 and agree to take the training day as unpaid, and then you left and they deducted £200 plus 1 day unpaid, then odds are this is a lawful deduction and it wouldn't count towards nmw calcs so it's irrelevant that your remaining pay works out at less than 6.50.

If you signed a vague contract saying you have to repay training costs but it doesn't clearly set out the exact amount and how long it applies for, then you might be able to argue it's an unlawful deduction as the contract might not hold up.

I'd definitely want to argue that the day's pay is an unlawful deduction if this was added after you signed the training contract.

Focus on whether they're contractually allowed to deduct what they have and ignore the minimum wage question as it's irrelevant.

user1471461798 Sat 08-Sep-18 15:34:26

The agreement I signed does say the amount and what it is for, but the days wage could have been added afterwards as it’s all handwritten and I don’t recall seeing that. So if we ignore the training and days lost wage, I worked 77 hours and only got paid 538.0, so it’s still less than minimum wage,

OP’s posts: |
Lazypuppy Sat 08-Sep-18 15:36:04

On your payslip what does it say your hourly rate is?

Are you looking at the gross figure before any deductions? Tax, ni, pensiins etx. If you are just looking at what is in your bank you're using the wrong figure

Lazypuppy Sat 08-Sep-18 15:36:39

@user1471461798 also regardless of nmw, what is your hourly rate supposed to be?

user1471461798 Sat 08-Sep-18 15:43:07

My hourly rate is 8.00 an hour, I work 22.5 hrs a week, so there is no tax, a small amount of national insurance. I do pay about 25.00 a month pension. I worked out that on the amount I got paid I shouldn’t have paid any nat ins., they won’t let me have my payslip or p45.

OP’s posts: |
Sofizzy Sat 08-Sep-18 16:13:18

They have to give you a payslip and P45. They can't 'not let' you have it. When is your usual pay day? I assume you will get it then.

nerdsville Sat 08-Sep-18 17:03:21

Sofizzy is right, they have to give you a payslip. It's going to be impossible to confirm anything one way or another if you're working off estimated figures - you need the actual gross amount on your payslip.

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