Do new employers tell current emplyers your start date?

[PuffinNose]

Does that title make sense?
All theoretical as I haven't even applied yet, let alone got the job!
I'm being made redundant. There's a job I'm applying for which has a non-negogiable start date which is a few days before I leave my current job.
I have some leave left in my current role so can take that immediately before I leave so will be able to start new job when required. For about 3 days I would basically have 2 jobs.
Current employer is doing everything they can to get me to resign (so they don't have to pay redundancy) but I'm sticking it out.
I suspect if they know I'm taking the leave to start a new job they will make life difficult for me.
I don't think they can refuse redundancy as it's a diff organisation but they might refuse leave etc.
I wouldn't lie about it but I wouldn't draw attention to it either.
I've never been in this position before and as I said it may not even matter but do new employers tell current employers the start date?
If not, do I need to tell current employer when my new job starts (if they don't ask)? Thry'll have to give references so will know I've been offered a job.
Also, I'm being let go because I put in a grievance rather than a restructure etc. The potential new company will know that it is unusual for me to be made redundant and no one else is. So how do I handle any questions/comments about this? Obviously I don't want to come accross as a difficult member of staff.
Thanks and wish me luck!

[deary]

I know a stipulation of NHS redundancy is that you don't have another job offer already!

[sooperdooper]

If the new job is with a different company then no they surely have no reason to contact your current employer, and if you have leave to take its normal to take those days at the end like you're suggesting

I don't understand the reasons you're being made redundant though, that doesn't sound right or legal! Have you had any independent advice from a union on the redundancy situation?

[daisychain01]

Are you actually being made redundant or is that a euphemism for a Settlement Agreement? I ask only because the way you've worded your OP sounds more like a SA than redundancy. What does the grievance have to do with it?

The situation sounds complex. Isn't it best to get your current role sorted out before applying for a new job, because of the sensitivity of the situation? Just wondering why the new job is important . If you are due a reasonable lump sum that you wouldn't otherwise get, no way I'd jeopardise that.

[daisychain01]

And sorry if my questions sound nosey

[flowery]

Can't think of any reason why your new employer would tell old employer your start date.

In terms of being able to "refuse redundancy", well, no, if your post is genuinely redundant and there is no suitable alternative then they can't refuse you redundancy. But it sounds like your post isn't redundant?

Also, if you've had formal notification of your termination by reason of redundancy, including your termination date, how are your employer "pushing you to resign"?

[PuffinNose]

Thanks all.
I didn't ecplain because I've posted a few times about it and people must be bored of reading about it. Haha!
I put in a grievance against my boss for bullying. It was not upheld but he was disciplined for "unrelated matters" (yeah right). They said we couldn't work together anymore. There wasn't much consultation about that but I do agree with it. He kept his job but there aren't any other roles for me to go into so I'm being made redundant. It was confirmed last week but it was expected. They've pretended to help me look for another job in the org but it was never going to happen. I know for a fact that a few jobs have been put on hold.
It really is that simple. Completely unfair but tbh if I took it to an ET or whatever, I wouldn't come off as well financially so I'm letting it go and considering myself lucky to get out of there.
I've had to kick up a fuss about getting redundancy. They were saing that because my actual job still exists and I've just agreed to be moved from it, that it was my decision and I wasn't entitled to redundancy. They've relented on that and I'll get the normal redundancy. Yes, I made them put that in the letter!
Deary, I know quite a few organisations that say you won't get redundancy if you get a job within that organisation within a certain time period. Does the NHS really not pay any redundancy if you have sometging lined up eksewhere? That's rubbish.
The potential job is something that doesn't come up very often and will give me some good opportunities. There isn't much that comes up within my expetience.
Also, financially I will get a gooddish lump sum but I really don't want to eat into it more than we have to. We have absolutely no savings and once we've paid off our debts I want to put away as much of my redundancy as we can. I won't get another job at my wage. It was kind of a fluke. My partner's job isn't looking hugely secure right now either so we need to prepare ourselves.

[PuffinNose]

They are making life very difficult for me. Just really subtle insidious things and things which could be easily justified by themselves but added together are really making work uncomfortable for me.
I'm not handing my notice in though. They've got away with everything else.

[NancyJoan]

It would be quite a big risk, I would think. Your current employee would be delighted not to have to pay you, I should think. I wonder, if you did get offered the job, could you work as a volunteer for the first three days, and have your contract start on day 4?

[sooperdooper]

Legally a person can't be made redundant, it has to be a role - have you had legal advise or spoken to a union?

Apart from that I actually don't see the issue with the cross over into holiday dates with the potential new job, you might as well apply for it anyway

[sooperdooper]

Does the NHS really not pay any redundancy if you have sometging lined up eksewhere? That's rubbish.

Surely the NHS would only not pay redundancy if you had another job offer within the NHS so you'd be redeployed rather than redundant- they can't not pay it if you have a new job elsewhere

[flowery]

"I'm not handing my notice in though"

But you're already serving your notice anyway, surely? If termination including a leaving date have all been agreed?

[PuffinNose]

By "handing in my notice" I mean that I am sticking it out to my last day.
They have given me notice of redundancy. My employment ends 30th Oct. If I quit/leave before my last day I will not be made redundant and will not get redindancy.
My union have said that it IS unusual to be treating me as being made redundant when my post still exists. However, this suits me. The org have tried to redeploy me (well, they've done as little as they can while still ticking the box) so the next step is redundancy.
They originally wouldn't give me redundancy pay, because like you all said, technically I'm not being made redundant because my post still exists.
I don't know what you'd call how I'm leaving though? The org are saying there is no place for me but my job still exists. I'm not exactly being sacked but I kind of am.

[PuffinNose]

Union have said it's very complicated and messy. I think they are a bit lost as well.
There are many things which haven't been done by the book and a few other issues I can't go into but it all adds up to them wanting me gone. I guess this is their way of making me leave with as little fuss as possible.

[Ditsy1980]

Is there no way the other job start date can be put back at all?

It's very tricky and I'm unsure of the legal grounds but I don't think I'd risk it.

Do you need the payout? Can you not just leave during your redundancy period and start the other job? I'm pretty sure if current employer found out it would void the redundancy payment, would they be able to claim it back from you?

[Cloudyapples]

So it's not redundancy then because your rparents or still exists? It's constructive dismissal isn't it?OP have you got legal advice on this situation?

[sooperdooper]

Glad you've had advice from the union, even if they agree it's very complicated!

Have you asked them about the other job situation? If you have it all in writing that they're paying you the redundancy & you're leaving on day X due to taking holidays then surely what you do with those days is none of their business

[PuffinNose]

Union is fairly sure I do have a legal case for a few different reasons but to be honest, I'm done. Chances are that even if an et or whoever found in my favour, because I'm getting redundancy I wouldn't be entitled to compensation anyway.
I don't want to work there so it isn't about keeping my job.
Recognition of what they've done would be nice but they will never do that, even if externally it was acknowledged.
ACAS say we have to do mediation etc which I absolutely do not want.
It's a whole load of upset and stress. It was hard enough putting in the grievance and I don't know what I'd have to gain by taking it further even though I could.
Some of the evidence he submitted is basically falsified eg parts of emails when the whole email shows a completely different aspect, a draft report which was never submitted, an email supposedly sent to me abut with the wrong address so I never got it and never acted on it etc etc.
So if I wanted to I could kick up a stink but I don't want to at this point.

[daisychain01]

I'd take things one step at a time.

If you are certain your employers mean what they say, that they are willing to "make you redundant", in writing, then I'd stick it out and get the redundancy payment in the bag, rather that rocking the boat.

Have you taken advice (ACAS?) if your employers were to promise a payment and then backtracked. It's sounding more and more like a Settlement Agreement the way you describe it (even if they aren't calling it so).

You could be setting yourself up for several months of serious stress, trying to juggle this complex, shakey situation while worrying about a non-negotiable start date for a hypothetical new job.

[Redcliff]

I don't think your new job should impact your redundancy pay. Do your new employers know that you are technically employed by them and your old job for a few days?

[HundredMilesAnHour]

You need to establish if this is really a redundancy (it doesn't sound like it) or if it's really just a pay-off and you'll sign a Settlement Agreement. If you need to sign a SA, make sure you check if there are restrictions on you taking the new job. It is quite common to have a statement in a SA that the SA (and hence the pay off) is not valid if the employee has a job offer elsewhere at the time of signing.

I strongly suggest you get legal advice from an employment lawyer. Your situation sounds messy but maybe that is also your writing style as you seem a little "woolly" with the facts (e.g. saying "I'm not handing my notice in though" when you're actually already in your notice period). You need to get a better understanding of what is going on and be more precise so people can better help you!

[SummerSazz]

Would the new employers contact your current one for a reference?

[PuffinNose]

Definantely redundancy. They have applied the redundancy policy and the letter says redundancy.
There has been no mention of a settlement agreement.

Apologies if I seem woolly. I don't think I have been but if I have I don't mean to be. At the same time you never know who is reading this so I don't want to put too much.

In summary:

1. I put in a grievance.
   
2. They said rhe grievance wasn't substantiated.
   
3. They said I couldn't work with my boss so I was removed from his team.
   
4. They said I had 3 weeks to find a new job in the organisation. They didn't call it redepoyment but reading posts on here, I think that is what it basically what it was.
   
5. There were no jobs so they started the redundancy process ie they gave me notice of redundancy and a redundancy date.
   
6. I am to be made redundant on 30 Oct.
   
7. I am currently working out my notice period.
   
8. My actual post still exists. They bought in a temp to do it and they plan to give her the job. In fact they I've been told they plan to get a second person in to do it too (part of bullying grievance was the workload).
   

To answer questions:

1. Any new employer would need a reference from my current job. I've been here too long to gloss over it. Plus my previous organisation went into receivership so no reference there.
   
2. By "not handing in my notice" I mean that I am not resigning/leaving before 30th Oct. Although it's horrible (I'm being excluded from org meetings / I found out yesterday I'm not going to receive a due bonus for work I've done etc) I am going to stay until 30th to be made redundant.
   
3. I'm going to leave quietly. I do have a legal case for a few reasons but it won't benefit me to take things further. Things like the bonus are v frustrating but I'm letting them slip.
   
4. The new job must start on that date.
   
5. I haven't even applied yet so it's all hyperthetical. :)
   

Thank you all for your replies and pm. I do appreciate it.

[daisychain01]

As your employer will treat it as a redundancy, you will get up to £30K tax free.

www.moneyadviceservice.org.uk/en/articles/do-you-have-to-pay-tax-on-your-redundancy-payout

Re: your bonus, smile quietly to yourself - your bonus would be taxed, but your redundacy won't be if it's under the above amount.

Lose the battle to win the war! Most importantly, you will walk away from a very unpleasant work situation, which is worth £1M.

[HundredMilesAnHour]

This whole situation is a bit weird and your employer sounds rather incompetent. You aren't being made redundant as your role still exists. But since you think you'll be better off accepting this pretend redundancy, I can understand why you're going along with it. I still think it would be prudent to get some legal advice (most employment lawyers offer an initial session for free) to make sure this approach is sensible and that there are no unforeseen consequences. I actually think a Settlement Agreement would be better as 1) you still get the same £30k tax-free, 2) neither you or your employer are allowed to discuss the Settlement Agreement (so there could be no badmouthing each other or revealing the reason why you left - so this gives you more "future reputation" protection than a redundancy), 3) you can agree your leaving date as part of the deal (e.g. you could agree to leave 3 days earlier etc). As I'm writing this, it's reminding me that even when I was last redundant (our entire dept was got rid of), we still signed a Settlement Agreement (known as a "Compromise Agreement" at the time) and this may be the case with you OP.

So, in summary, I think you need to do some digging re the actual redundancy process (you need to see the terms and conditions that you'll sign) and get some free legal advice. Make sure that this really is the best deal for you by talking to a lawyer. What happens if you don't get this job you want to apply for? Will you be able to manage financially? Make sure you are getting the best deal and that you won' be better off having a lawyer negotiate a pay-off on your behalf.