Any nurses on here? Questions about working over 37.5hrs a week.

[CountryLovingGirl]

Hi,
I have a question.
What happens if you are contracted to work 37.5 hours a week (Mon-Sun) and you are put down for extra shifts, over and above the 37.5hrs, by e-rostering? I'm not a nurse but work in the NHS. I am regularly doing 3x7.5 hr shifts (say Mon, Tues and Weds) then another 37.5hrs nightshifts(Friday, Sat and Sun) in one week. They give us the hours back but it can be weeks later.
We have found out that one of our closest departments are paying staff overtime if they go over their 37.5hr week.
I have, recently, gone full time after work part time for 10 years so it is a shock to work a lot more than what I was expecting (hard being a parent too).
The union rep is saying it is our fault as we aren't complaining but can we say to the manager that we only want to work 37.5hrs a week? Where do we stand?
Also, if we are down to do 5x7.5 shifts in a week and we take one day as annual leave (say, Friday) then we are being put down to work the weekend so work 6 days that week, not 4. So, we are not benefitting from annual leave! Union again says this is not on.
I just wondered what happens elsewhere. I think we at being taken for a ride really. We don't have enough staff either!

[Arriettyborrower]

How long are your nights shifts minus breaks?
The Sunday shift would be into your next week? In my trust our week runs Sunday - Saturday.

[Arriettyborrower]

However - it doesn't sound good!!

[FormerlyFrikadela01]

My trust gets round this because it's over the month rather than per week. It's shit. Especially since we got a new eroster system and management think it's the law and have started with the "computer says no" bullshit.

[Arriettyborrower]

You shouldn't be being rostered on to additional shifts over and above your hours without discussion/agreement.
Any additional shifts required should be being out as bank then substantive staff picking those shifts up if they want to.
Occasionally in my team staff have worked an extra shift one week and one less the next in order to cover, however this shouldn't be the norm.
IMO it is very poor practice to roster in the way you describe as not only will it massively impact on staff morale, productivity and affect retention, it also covers up gaps in staffing/workforce planning.
It is a really, really difficult time in the NHS at the moment, cost cutting is key, but if done poorly - like here - it will only exacerbate long term problems.
What is your union saying you should do?? It sounds to me as if you need a meeting with your team leader/ward manager with union rep present to clarify exactly what is happening with regard to rostering and your contracted hours.

[Arriettyborrower]

Just seen your week is mon-sun.

What happens the week after if you work mon-wed then fri/sat/sun? You can't work the Monday if finishing the Monday morning (unless back that night)

How do your hours work out over the 4 week period?

[Arriettyborrower]

Frika unfortunately E-Roster is practically the law post the Carter Report.

[Sweetpotatoaddict]

I'm contracted to a 37.5 hour week but work 3 shifts 3 weeks of the month totalling 34.6hours and 1 week of 4 shifts so work 46 hours that week. It's pretty normal practice, the holiday thing however is unacceptable.

[daisychain01]

Do I understand it right - you're being rota'd to do 75 hours over the course of a week? How many hours do you deduct from that for breaks?

Have you opted out of the Working Time Directive of maximum 48 hours per week?

[Babyroobs]

Our rota is worked out over a 4 week period ( not e rostering though). So I work 15 hours a week ( 60 a month). However I could be given 30 in one week then none the next . As long as the hours are correct over the 4 week period they don't seem to care. It annoys everyone. Obviously people work part time for a reason but then end up with more hours than they want in one week. Full timers can sometimes end up with 50/ 60 hours a week ifgiven a few day shifts at the start of the week and a few nightshifts at the weekend. We have recently gne from 7.5 hour days to 12 hour shifts in the hope that it would improve things !

[CountryLovingGirl]

For 12 hour shifts we work 12.5 hrs and have 1/2 hour for a break.
For 7.5 hours we work 8 hrs and have 1/2 hr for a break.

I haven't opted out of the 48 hr WTD. I don't want to work more than 37.5hrs a week but they are getting away with rostering staff to work well over 37.5hrs a week. You do get the time back over the next 4 weeks though but it's very lazy rostering and they, clearly, don't have enough staff. I think the problem is we have gone from a 9-5 day, generally, with a few SAT/SUN mornings to a long, extended day opening with all day weekend working (you do your 7.5hr shift within the hours of 8am-8pm) and a nightshift - with no extra staff!
Staff morale is very bad. We have lost staff who have been with us for years and we have a few on long term sick. I have been thinking of leaving the NHS a while now and this is the deciding factor (I have lots of experience).
I honestly don't know how they are getting away with it. None of the management team, of course, work late shifts/weekends or nights. To me a 7 day, extended, service should include them - right?

[CountryLovingGirl]

Babyroobs,
Our part timers are the same. They are part time for a REASON but can sometimes end up working full time some weeks because of this way of rostering.

[CountryLovingGirl]

They could roster us for 7.5hr shifts Monday to Friday and 12.5hr nights Fri-Sun so that would be 75hrs in one week!
Absolutely crazy and very tiring.

[CountryLovingGirl]

Daisychain,
There wouldn't be any hours deducted for breaks as we have to work an extra 1/2 hr each shift (on top of the potential 75hrs) to allow us 1/2 hr each shift. It's like the Victorian times!

[FormerlyFrikadela01]

When I say they treat eroster like the law I mean even if the system rotas you for 11 days in a row they make out that they have no power to change it. However I've worked elsewhere with this particular system and the manager can go in and move shifts around. It's ridiculous. Staff morale was at an all time low before I went on maternity and from what I've heard and seen (DP works for same trust) nothing has improved and staff turnover is shocking t the moment.
This is one of those situations where computer systems help but an actual human should be getting the final say on shifts.

[agedknees]

Any time we worked over our contracted hours we used to get time owing. Then one of the hca's raised a grievance because porters got paid for extra hours worked, so we now have the choice.

Sometimes you could work 8am-8pm with barely a 20 min break. This had to be taken at our work place because there was no trained cover to give break relief.

Just one of the reasons I am leaving nursing after 36 years.

[daisychain01]

This is one of those situations where computer systems help but an actual human should be getting the final say on shifts

It seem very much a "the computer says nahhhhh" culture.

If you haven't opted out of the WTD, I'd definitely do as Arrietty suggests and get your rota manager and Union member involved in a dialogue. It is awful what is happening in the NHS but you need to take care of your own health, stress and fatigue is an extremely damaging combination, and you should not be worn into the ground because of lack of staff.

[daisychain01]

Having time given back to you 4 weeks later does not remedy your immediate fatigue levels, it's a case of too little too late.

[CountryLovingGirl]

I agree that something should be done. The union rep is furious about it. E-rostering is pants in my opinion. I bet if managers worked shifts like us then things would soon change.
We have numerous people with a grievance going through but for different things but I think that a grievance needs to be raised about this. How can you have people, in the same directorate, being paid overtime for going over 37.5hrs but other staff aren't? Dodgy and dangerous!