Handing in notice - a wuss

[vickibee]

I have just been offered a new job @ 25 hours per week subject to satisfactory references.

My current very small employer will take the hump when I hand in my notice and will be arsy about giving a reference. There is no HR dept and the only person to ask is my boss also MD. They have treated me pretty bad already cutting my hours down and like a lot of others I haven't had a pay review in 3 years service. The MD said he was hsppy at an appraisal last Nov although it is not foramlly recorded

My question is can he refuse to provide a refernce? and can he make me leave straight away without notice cos he has the hump?

I feel anxious already

[crw1234]

I think he can refuse to give a reference - or at least the recourse you have is limited

• do you have other people you can ask -a collegue at the same place - unless its really is just you and your boss - and the employer before this one would be my suggestions - I would actually in this case get those set up and sent off before giving in your notice
  
  I think he can ask you to leave but I think he has to pay your notice period - and if you have any holiday to take for that as well
  However I would check this with someone with more leagal knowledge - suggest the ACAS helpline -
  Sounds like you are best off out of there if he is like that

[AMumInScotland]

I'm not sure if he has to write a reference or not, but I guess he may not be very glowing about you on it (legally I'm sure he can't tell lies on it, but he doesn't have to "big you up" either). Are there other people you can ask for a reference as well? Previous employer, people who know you are efficient and helpful from other parts of your life?

He can ask you to leave straight away - in some cases people who resign are escorted back to their desk to collect their personal stuff and then walked out the door. That's usually when the company are worried about what you might do during your notice, like taking interesting information to a competitor, but he could do it. But he still has to pay you for your notice period, even if you aren't doing any work.

[prh47bridge]

Your employer is not under any obligation to provide a reference. I agree with crw1234 that you could look elsewhere for references. It is probably also worth explaining to the new employer why you don't want to give your current boss as a referee and making sure they are ok with that.

Your current employer can make you leave straight away but they must pay your notice period and any accrued holiday entitlement.

[vickibee]

Thanks everyone
I have been wanting to leave for ages, the attitude of the directors is that you should be grateful to have a job and they are doing you a favour. It is also a very male orientated environment, I am the only female. Also they have been putting items of personal expenditure through as business stauff which I was not happy with but I was told to MMOB - like it or lump it etc. They are on the fiddle left right and centre

I don't think that they will get me to leave straight away when i think about it as there is no one elso who can do my job which includes weekly & monthly payroll so no salaries would be paid..

[almondlatte]

[[http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Employment/Employees/Startinganewjob/DG_10026703 This link may be helpful. Also ring the Acas helpline.

I would ask for a reference. If they say no - then ask for a Whom it May concern letter, where the company says:

Your name

Title

Dates of Employment

Reason for leaving:

And a line that they do not provide references, and/or accept no legal liability for this letter - and that this is their standard practice.

You could even draft it yourself.

Also if they have had a practice of providing others with references then they owe you the same duty of care.

You can always accept the offer and then let the new employer know about the reference policy or lack of. You could offer or see if anyone at your firm would be personal referee and/or if any clients would do this for you.

By the way I have hired people where I have managers acting improperly and being difficult - I have always seen if I can get a personal reference to allay any fears. Many companies only provide very basic details. Your boss can not stop you from getting a job - you could possibly claim victimisation of some sort.

Is there no copy of an appraisal that you can request??

[almondlatte]

Here is a link

[vickibee]

Everything is really informal here and nothing is put down on paper. There are only a handful of employees and the MD thinks he can hold all the info in his head. Very set in their ways.
My appraisal was positive and the MD said he was happy with my contribution, all I can do is ask

Thanks to everyone for the help

[almondlatte]

Vicki - you could always go to him with a draft reference, that way he only has to sign it. And you could say - thank you for the positive reference and my employment to date - I would very much appreciate it if you could assist by just providing me with a brief one page reference.

Good luck!!!!!!

[gysela]

Hi viki sounds like my job! I think fiddling is unfortunately a big part of small companies. My boss put £500 of valentines day expenses (hotel, meals etc) through the accounts and also thinks I should be grateful for the job.
I am going on maternity leave soon and dont intend to come back. But like you I will be worried about references if I resigned. The smaller the company the more vicious they can be as they take everything so personally

[vickibee]

Gysela

Do you feel in a difficult position integrity versus rocking the boat?

My Md out about £30k through for his home extension and got his mates to invoice the company for payment. In effect he has not paid the purchase Vat and profits will be understated so less corp tax. Also puts stuff through for improvements to his mistress's place, decor etc. We are a construction company so it looks normal

[GnomeDePlume]

I think they are obliged to tell your next employer about any personnel facts eg days off sick etc. For most new employers the barest minimum is normally satisfactory. What they want to be sure of is that you have resigned not been sacked for pinching the petty cash or something.

As others have said, you cant be sacked for handing in notice, all they can do is send you home and pay up notice and outstanding holidays.

Good luck, it sounds like you are well rid.

[prh47bridge]

No, they are not obliged to tell the next employer anything. Employers do not have to provide references nor do they have to provide the next employer with any other information about staff. Their only obligation is to provide the employee with a P45.

[almondlatte]

Some industries like finance may have obligations that mean some sort of reference need to be given. Vicki you have nothing to lose in asking for a reference or drafting one. It sounds like you will be glad to be shot of such an unethical employer.

[gysela]

Oh I am struggling with integrity every day! I go home crying some of the time because on the days when I do rock the boat, I am told off and made to feel incompetent (apparently it shouldn't be a problem for professional accountants) and he's got his boys to laugh it off with.
At least it looks normal on yours, we are a social enterprise it looks bleeding abnormal on our books.
I am counting the days till I leave....

[crw1234]

gysela if you are leaving I would think about reporting it somewhere -presumably it public funds they are misusing. I would ask for a written reference before you go on maternity leave "just in case" you don't come back maybe?

[gysela]

I intend to ask for a reference at the end of my maternity leave. I am not sure where to report it to be honest. I am happy to just leave them and all their dodgy dealings behind, sooner or later it will come to light.

[crw1234]

HMRC, their funders?

[vickibee]

Gysela

You sound in exactly the same sitauation as me. I am worried in case I am held responsibe in some way. I actually checked this out with a legal helpline and was thankfully informed it is the directors who are culpable not me. should I report their doings to HMRC, I could take copies of all the dodgy invoices and get them in to loads of trouble.

[gysela]

I would report them anonymously if I could as I feel that ethically we are supposed to have a backbone and call them up all the time on these dodgy transactions, unfortunately I am too much of a wuss. I have taken to putting all the dodgy transactions down as Director's loans taken out of the company. It brings a bit of balance in our case and if they challenge it I will defend my corner. I may indirectly warn my replacement about it as well....being new and all she might object a bit more or she maybe as dodgy as they are I dont know

[vickibee]

Yhey both have loan accounts and initially I put personal stuff there but they told me I had to move it. What can you do...? The only stuff that goes there now is dividends (Paid NMW to avoid er's NI) private fuel and care repairs plus golf fees.

[gysela]

Oh the other thing I wanted to say is that taking the invoices my breach confidentiality. In my case I doubt hmrc will come knocking on the door even if I reported annonymously. On paper the company doesnt make loads and if it did go to court they will claim bankruptcy to get out of paying fines etc...there is jail though

[vickibee]

The director's here are just plain greedy cos the company is thriving with very healthy profits etc. They just want to live the high life and treat their staff badly. I am glad to be leaving although I still have to hand in my notice, the new job is 2nd May start so maybe I will do it on April Fool's day and they might think it is a joke....

[gysela]

It must be even more difficult for you! Sounds like they micro manage if they can ask you to move stuff. I guess here its assumed I am doing as am told as they can be very loud about it sometimes, I cower behind my desk - if only they knew.
I will not be asking for references - I know it will be damning if they find out I have not been playing along.
I intend to ask ex finance manager they fired for not playing along for references.

[gysela]

April fool's day is great! they will not know what hit them....

[vickibee]

Unfortunately my new job is subject to a satisfatory reference from my current employer. My last appreaisal was positive so I shall ask them to consider that. I know it sound like I am blowing my own trumpet but I don't think they will find a replacement with my skills and qualifications for the wages they want to pay. I haven't had a rise in the three years I have been there, don't get sick pay or any bonuses or benefits. Unless you include the xmas hamper.