Appealing a gross misconduct dismissal and/or unfair dismissal, help!

[Hopefully]

I posted last week about my DP being accused of gross misconduct - thread here. He was sacked (informed in writing, letter came saturday), and we are now working out our next step.

But the information is so unclear! All the information seems to be geared towards employers, not employees. We will call ACAS and CAB tomorrow, but I am just trying to straighten out a couple of matters in my head:

1. Can DP file a grievance for bullying/harrassment after being sacked? We have reason to believe (and some evidence) that the manager who carried out the disciplinary had a vendetta against him, but don't know if we've missed the boat to do something about this. Or should we mention this evidence in the appeal instead?
   
2. If we appeal, does that damage our chances of taking this claim to a tribunal if the appeal is unsuccessful?
   
3. Should we wait until the appeal is concluded before filing for unfair dismissal? (we expect it to be unsuccessful, unless they call ACAS in, as there is no one competent in HR who is level or senior to the person who carried out the disciplinary). I understand there's a 3 month limit on tribunal claims, but as his employer has been relatively prompt thus far, I'm not too concerned about running out of time (if they delay, we will file anyway).
   

Any answers anyone can give will help make his phonecall to ACAS tomorrow much more straighforward!

[DancingHippoOnAcid]

Saw the previous thread, can't believe he has been sacked over this, so sorry

1. Don't think you can file a grievance after being sacked, rather you should bring up the harassment issues as part of the basis for your appeal.
   

1. In fact, you MUST appeal to have a chance of a successful tribunal claim, as you have to show that you followed all internal appeal procedures before bringing a case.
   

1. As above, you must wait for the result of the appeal before bringing a case as, in theory, the appeal may overturn the priginal decision and you would not need to bring a case. Not very likely, i know, but you need to follow the procedure. Has your DH been informed of appeals procedure? You must follow it if so - particularly re time limits on filing appeal, they can be pretty tight. His employer must hold the appeal and give decision promptly, certainly to give enough time to file a tribunal case if need be. I would think refusal to hold the appeal in good time would be in itself unfair conduct and in this case you could file a case without having the appeal.
   

Have you had any advice from a solicitor yet? As they have now dismissed your DH you should contact insurers if have legal cover and see about starting a claim. Failing that, see if you can get advice from CAB. Try not to get into situation of paying out legal fees yourself, the cost soon mounts up.

Keep you chin up, sounds to me like his ex employers are on very dodgy ground indeed.

[RibenaBerry]

My view would be:

1. Include this all in the appeal.
   

1. It won't hurt your case if the appeal is rejected, but it will help your case that you have appealed and followed all internal processes (it used to be the case that you had to appeal, but that was scrapped earlier this year).
   

1. Yes, if you can. That way you can include things that they do wrong in the appeal on the claim form!
   

Have you checked your home contents insurance to see if you have legal cover? Quite a lot of policies do these days...

[flowerybeanbag]

1. Not really, put it in the appeal now. They might say 'oh if you had a problem with x manager you should have raised a grievance during the process', but don't worry, and yes put it (together with anything unfair about the decision or the procedure used) in the appeal.
   

1. No, in fact as mentioned, if you bring a claim without exhausting internal procedures you will be disadvantaged and the employer will say 'we were given no chance to listen to concerns and addres them'.
   

1. Yes, unless delay becomes ridiculous. What is your concern about HR? You don't specifically need to have anyone in HR level to or senior to the person actually hearing either the grievance or the appeal. HR are there to advise, see that procedure is followed and usually take notes. Although for something like this someone fairly senior would be good and usual, it wouldn't necessarily be anyone different to the HR person who attended the initial hearing. What's important is that the manager/director actually hearing the appeal and making the decision is different and usually more senior.

[Hopefully]

Thanks for all your advice, really appreciate it.

Sorry Flowery, the HR issue is not very clear. The guy who has brought the disciplinary against DP is in charge of HR (he is the HR department). He has no formal HR training, and no one else in the company has a clue. There were some noises made about outsourcing an appeal decision, but we won't know that until they get back to us about the appeal. I appreciate that they can just get another manager to hear the appeal, but the impression DP got was that no one else wanted to.

Some slightly good news - turns out we do have legal cover on house insurance (despite having the lowest, cheapest cover in the world), so we are able to get some decent legal advice, finally. DP is on the phone to them right now.

[flowerybeanbag]

Ok, so no decent advice. The person hearing the appeal should be whoever this HR idiot person reports into, so unless he owns the company, there should be someone prepared to take responsibility.

Hope the legal advice is decent anyway.

[DancingHippoOnAcid]

Glad you are able to get legal cover. This should be a great help to you. Hope the phone advice they gave your DH was good news.

[sophiecattoo]

Yes you can put in a grievance after you have been dismissed, I think there is a time limit but you can. You must speak with ACAS they are very very good and can advise you on everything you have asked here. They can also put you in touch with a good Employment Law expert.

[DancingHippoOnAcid]

I would personally get advice from an employment solicitor rather than relying on ACAS advice. The quality of the advice from the helpline can be somewhat variable.

[Hopefully]

Dancing we've definitely experienced that - a couple of people have been ace, one guy was a complete waste of space!

DP has spoken to home insurance helpline, and a solicitor, and he has an appointment with an employment specialist at CAB tomorrow. On an initial glance at the paperwork, the solicitor is very optimistic (reckons that even if DP were guilty of the specific things they've fired him for - slightly different from the original charges - it still wouldn't justify sacking him), but both he and CAB guy will look at it properly tomorrow and hopefully we'll know a bit more.

The 'HR' man isn't the owner of the company, so I guess the owner will get involved now it's going to appeal (even if they outsource the actual appeal process in some way). I'm just thrilled that this guy can no longer make any decisions, so at least we might start to get somewhere without his prejudices in the picture.