What should we do

[potbellyroast]

Sorry for the long post - not posted on here in years so please forgive any lack of etiquette.. I’m also terrified the person in question might see this and identify the parties involved.

So PIL are really struggling with their health. FIL has vascular dementia and has refused to agree to POA for years. He now does not have capacity and so DH is applying for a deputyship for him. SW has signed to say he doesn’t have capacity but WW3 is likely to erupt very soon.

MIL agreed to POA and this has just come through.

Over the years FIL has been physically, emotionally and financially abusive to MIL and has had many, many affairs. However MIL chose to remain with him and we’ve had to respect her wishes. Until recently we’ve thought that FIL being there enabled her to stay at home as she is totally housebound.

A neighbour has been very helpful over the last year or so and DH has been grateful to her when both of them have fallen and she’s has assisted them. PIL think a lot about her and say she’s like a daughter to them. As FIL had socially isolated MIL over the years they have no friends other than 2 neighbours. DH therefore asked them to be certificate providers for POA which they were happy to do. FIL was in hospital at the time and as we needed to get a key safe for MIL DH gave neighbour the number - essentially in case she had another fall as we live quite a distance away.

Since then neighbour has stepped up incredibly to help them. She started by occasionally making them cakes, then making them evening meals. She then started doing bits of shopping for them. She now calls around every day, twice a day. Empties MIL commode, makes meals and does shopping. She doesn’t seem to bother checking on their medication though.

The problem is that this neighbour is doing all the ‘nice stuff’ which is appreciated by PIL whereas we are left with difficult conversations such as stopping driving, getting in carers and trying to get them to pay bills. This has proved difficult as this neighbour appears to be working against us - we can’t convince them to get carers in to empty commode or support medication whilst ever they think she can do it. I have just taken 5 weeks off work to deal with a current crisis situation and find I arrive each day to find she has done the jobs I was intending to do and had bought shopping duplicating what I’d already bought.

MIL Says that the neighbour’s own mother left cash in envelopes around the house so that when she died the people who she wanted to got the money. Neighbour has said that her and her husband have just completed a will as they have a friend who does them. FIL doesn’t have a will and the neighbour has been telling him he should get one sorted soon. Now that he’s not driving, she is taking him to the bank where he takes out in excess of £1k each time. She has offered to take the money to keep it safe. MIL refers to neighbour as being extremely bossy and that she can get FIL to do whatever she wants. As mentioned earlier this is unusual as FIL is a very controlling individual. However, MIL sees this bossy behaviour as a positive thing.

Neighbour is unaware that FIL has been assessed as not having capacity and does not know about deputyship application.

DH is currently staving off bailiffs and court summons as no bills have been paid for months. We have no idea where the money that he has taken out has gone. He could not explain to SW where it had gone.

Recently PIL had a gas leak and DH agreed with SW that they shouldn’t use the gas fire as it’s not safe (she referred to fire authority) and also the gas hob. FIL has been throwing paper on the gas fire - witnessed by the SW. DH arranged for fire to be capped off. Somehow PIL got British Gas to come out and reconnect it all which DH and SW believed was beyond their capabilities.

Neighbour has been checking MIL’s medical file to see when an important appointment would be - she said that she’s allowed to look because it’s with one of the doctors that she works for...

Neighbour has also been supporting 2 other older ladies on the same street - one we know who has no family at all. She had been taking them shopping etc despite having a full time job, a family of her own and by all accounts loads of animals to care for.

I feel like we have been happy for this neighbour to keep a watchful eye on them but not sure now whether she is overstepping the mark, and if she is what do we do? We can’t stop her visiting as PIL think the world of her and do have the capacity to make decisions around friends calling around. Are we right to be concerned or are we overthinking things?? Are we being incredibly ungrateful and do we need to give our heads a wobble?

[HappyHammy]

Oh dear. Neithbour cannot take money out if he lacks capacity, you need to contact his bank and explain the situation, they may help your dh have control. He will not be able to make Will if he lacks capacity unless you are in England and your dh arranged a Statutory Will for him. Neighbour has no right to look up his medical records, that is a serious breach and you need to contact the practice manager. With the fire you need to contact British gas and have it removed and an electric cooker and fire put in. I would log a call with his adult social services safeguarding team and your dh can contact the office of the public guardian to see what advice they might help with.

[potbellyroast]

We have tried with his banks - they have been no help at all and refused to even enter into dialogue with DH. We have also spoken to SW and she said she would pass this on to a specialist team but this was weeks ago and despite chasing this up we’ve had no contact from them. It’s taken them around 7 months to fill out the form for the deputyship.

I suppose I’m just wondering what we do in the here and now with neighbour. We don’t want accuse her of stealing money as we have no evidence that she has done anything wrong and it could well be that FIL has just lost the money.

Neighbour is unaware that he lacks capacity and I could see why she would think that he still has due to the quirky nature of dementia I think.

PIL do get a lot from her visits and think she is amazing.

[mouse70]

Contact police. May be financial abuse. Speak to Social Worker about this possibility. They may also be able to appoint an independent guardian for FIL until your husband can obtain legal power to deal with everything

[HappyHammy]

Your dh can apply for deputyship, it doesnt have to be ss. The o.p.g. will help you you could speak to elder abuse, not saying he is being deliberately abused but they may have some thoughts. I would contact the bank fraud department again, if you have proof that he lacks capacity then she should not be helping him take money out. I would tell neighbour that he lacks capacity and that he is vulnerable a d that social services are involved. The banks, the neighbour are ,leaving themselves wide open if anything does happen. Age UK are very helpful too.

[potbellyroast]

It wasn’t the fraud department DH spoke to - just to the local branches, so thank you we will try that.

I’ve tried on numerous occasions to get through to age Uk and elder abuse but not been able to. I’ll keep trying though.

SW said the specialist team had the police working with them but they’ve not been in touch despite us chasing them. We’ve also told SW about neighbour accessing MIL medical records - despite saying she had reason to and therefore it being allowed.

The neighbour is acting as if she’s entitled to do whatever she wants and I’m finding it incredibly frustrating and quite upsetting at times. I go to the effort to prepare food etc only to find out she’s taken over. DH called MIL on the phone tonight for a chat - she cut the phone call sort because neighbour had arrived (3rd time today).

[HappyHammy]

She cannot access medical notes so you need to contact the surgery and put a block on them. I would call the social worker team leader, they must have a complaints department and also the police. It sounds very difficult. Do this all via email too so you have a paper trail.

[mouse70]

Report neighbour to GP Practice manager re obtaining access to medical records of the PILs.

[potbellyroast]

Neighbour works at the hospital rather than GP practice and we’ve been worried about reporting her in case she is suspended and can go around to PIL 24/7 which would concern us.

[potbellyroast]

Thank you for the advice about the paper trail. DH is emailing SS now.

[HappyHammy]

If she is accessing his notes then could be doing the same for other people. Surely the hospital send out appointment letters which can be written on a calender. What is her job there. Unauthorised access is a serious breach.

[potbellyroast]

She’s a medical secretary - we also suspect she’s accessed the records of the other 2 older people she helps in the street and have told SS all this but we are just not getting any response from them.

The only thing that has happened, and we didn’t want to read too much into it, is that the hospital where she was supposed to have the procedure phoned MIL to say it’s not going ahead there and will now be done at another hospital.

[potbellyroast]

FIL opens and then hides all letters that come through - hence bills not being paid and there’s been lots of missed appointments for them both. When we do find a letter with appointments on we immediately write them on the calendar- but that’s dependent on us finding them.

[HappyHammy]

The.hospital.can call.to.say a.procedure is cancelled but should send details of the new appointment. Social services wont get involved in this. You need to call the information governance department at the hospital.

[ploppityplop]

call the police. shes abusing her position fullstop. <br /> <br /> Youve tried being "nice".

She will know (shell have had training!) shes in the wrong.

[HappyHammy]

If you now have poa for her and.asked.deputyship for him you can arrange mail redirection via.the post office but will need to show the documents.

[ploppityplop]

she is abusing their trust utterly. Anyone in her postion in the NHS would KNOW not to do any of this . The fact shes doing this to other elderly people nearby sets alarm bells ringing!!! Dont feel bad if she got suspended......she does know she is in the wrong. so stop fannying about please. Its elder abuse. frighfully common.

[Mumdiva99]

What if she is just a kind neighbour? Could you arrange a meeting with her to talk through this? My mum is that kind of neighbour....I sometimes think she over steps the mark and maybe she does but it's done with the best of intentions. With one neighbour the daughter arranged for my mum to get the carers allowance as she was doing so much for her. In return my mum treated it like a job and committed to visiting at certain times and only took time off when the family arranged cover.

The money thing is worrying. But again just ask as the neighbour might know where it's going or being hidden. And if she is dodgy at least she'll know you know and think twice before doing it again. Let her know you are seeking power of attorney so she understands the seriousness of the situation. And good luck with it all.

[potbellyroast]

Thank you everyone- DH went around weekend before last to ask her to leave health and financial issues to family members. He was careful to say how much we appreciated her keeping an eye on PIL but that we felt uncomfortable with her discussing wills, taking FIL to bank, offering to keep money safe etc.

She completely denied accessing medical records which I know is a lie as I was in ear shot when she was talking to MIL about looking at them.

First thing she did was wait until we left and then visited PIL crying saying we had accused her of stealing money - which we absolutely have not done! Then because they think she is wonderful and can do no wrong, we were in the firing line (again).

Neighbours daughter then came around shouting at DH (he’s never met her before) and said, amongst other things, ‘there’s loads of money in that house’.

DH has text neighbour to say if she thought we were accusing her then we absolutely were not but could we work together in best interests of PIL. no reply. We are really worried that we have started something that is purely innocent, but we had some lovely paramedics who came around when FIL was ill and they had a long chat with us and said that they felt it could be something more sinister and encouraged us to speak to SS.

The reason we left it with SS was that they assured us that their specialist team, which includes the police, would take this matter on and had accepted the

Sorry if I’m drip feeding but I was conscious of such a long OP.

[HappyHammy]

The hospital can check what she has accessed so thats easy to sort out. She actually sounds pretty sneaky and abusive.

[freeingNora]

I'm sorry but I'd be calling the police the neighbour sounds like an elder abuser and if she's crying about it like this it's because she thinks the game is up

She's been relying on you being too nice to cause a fuss

[HappyHammy]

She needs to know he has lost capacity and that social services are now involved in all aspects of his care. Your mil needs to protect him too. Can your dh try and talk to his mum dont worry about a Will as you have to be of sound mind or it isnt valud.

[potbellyroast]

Ok - so DH has just emailed the SW updating her on recent events.

I’ll prioritise ringing the action on elder abuse helpline and keep trying to see if I can get through and then follow advice, including ringing the police if that’s appropriate.

DH has got details of how to request who has viewed his parents medical records and will get on with that tomorrow. Not sure he’ll be able to do FIL but he’ll give it a go. Can definitely do his mums as he has POA.

DH and I have tried very carefully to speak to MIL about neighbour but she truly won’t have a bad word said about her.

I’ll speak to neighbour to let her know SS have taken over regarding FIL and that he no longer has capacity.

DH will speak to fraud dept of FIL banks.

Thank you to everyone - it has really helped to run things through with you all

[flowerflies]

You do not need POA to report a concern re accessing medical records. Your suspicion is there, all you have to do is contact the appropriate department in the hospital.

[HappyHammy]

Great update, hope you get this all sorted out, update us if you want to share.

[potbellyroast]

Managed to speak to the elder abuse helpline who told me that we are in a very difficult position given that PIL want neighbour to visit and they are happy with her doing all the work etc. If it was just FIL who doesn’t have capacity it would be easier but give MIL has capacity to make this decision there is nothing much we can do. They advised speak to SS safeguarding team and try speaking to neighbour again.

DH spoke to safeguarding team who pretty much washed their hands of it. They suggested calling the police about the money but as I’ve said we can’t say that she’s taken any money as we have no evidence, other than money is missing. Given FIL memory it could well be hidden in his bedroom which looks something like on one of those hoarders programmes.

The only other suggestion SS made was for CCTV / cameras and they seemed to suggest that this was lawful but I’m not sure and will need to do some research.

DH will speak to hospital regarding medical notes tomorrow. I’ll be speaking to the neighbour