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Just financial LPA? Or health & welfare as well?

(16 Posts)
PingPongBat Tue 12-Jan-16 20:57:57

Since Mum has passed away, DB2 has suggested getting LPA for Dad. We (me, DB1 & DB2) just have an ordinary POA for him at the moment.

Dad is 80, in good physical health, shows no signs of mental health issues (although he is increasingly forgetful). However DB1, DB2 & I are all in agreement that we should get LPA for him while he's still has mental capacity, & Dad has apparently told DB2 he would be happy to get this set up. I'm assuming he will appoint me & both DBs acting jointly and severally, with Dad's 4 siblings being 'notified'.

My query is about whether we should/need to get both financial and health & welfare LPAs. I've heard anecdotally that 'most people' only get the financial affairs LPA, but not the health and welfare one.

Does this ring true? Why might this be the case? I was going to suggest he does both LPAs but I'd like to hear people's experiences & views on this.

mamadoc Tue 12-Jan-16 21:11:05

You have to pay twice to get the two done so that's a downside

Financial I would advise is essential whereas health and welfare is more optional

You need health and welfare to manage someone's money if they can't do it

Health and welfare allows you to additionally take decisions like getting carers in, moving to a care home or having medical procedures. These may not apply to everyone anyway. If you don't have health and welfare and your relative lacks capacity Drs and social workers are required to consult with you anyway as a relative but not obliged to abide by your decision as they would be if you have LPA. Most times (unless the persons wishes are unusual or controversial) the family and Drs agree anyway so that's why it's nice but not essential imho.

florentina1 Tue 12-Jan-16 22:32:39

Definitely get both. My mum had a severe stroke. She had always said that in such a case she woud not want any intervention procedures.

Together we wrote a 'detailed end of life plan". When she went int hospital they had the End of life plan but asked if I had POA.

The Doctor explained that they would follow my mums wishes with regard to non-intervention, because of the Health and welfare POA. Without that they could have overridden the end of life plan if they wanted to.

Even the your dad is healthy, he could have an accident at any time or like my mum a stroke. It. Is not that expensive if you do it yourself.

Needmoresleep Wed 13-Jan-16 12:23:31

PingPong, I don'tknow if I can say "welcome back" but you know what I mean.

The financial one is very important but if doing one I can't see why you should not do both. I'Ve not had to show mine ever, but as florentina suggests, there may be times when it is very important.

In terms of the Financial it has been far easier for me to be the sole attorney. Banks, out of necessity, can be very exact on having all Attorneys sign or simply only allow accounts if there is one Attorney. I suspect it depends on how much money and trust there is, but if affairs are complicated and trust weak, I would suggest something like one person with the others getting copies of accounts/taxreturns/banks statements and an agreement that there is consultation on major decisions. Its probably quicker to do all the day to day stuff yourself than having to consult.

CMOTDibbler Wed 13-Jan-16 12:43:16

I have both, for both my parents. Having the health one has made the hospital much happier to involve me in discussions about their care. I'd recommend getting both

PingPongBat Wed 13-Jan-16 16:42:35

Thanks everyone. We will talk to Dad about getting both.

And NMS yes of course you can say that smile - thank you. Fortunately Dad doesn't need too much support from me at the moment (he's visiting his sisters in Australia) but he is still feeling mum's loss very much, so when he's in the UK I see a lot of him and do loads of emotional propping up. We will have a fairly short window to get the LPA forms completed when he comes back from his travels on March as he is talking about going back to France in April, with the intention of getting the house over there ready to sell.

I am very lucky in that both I get on extremely well with, & am very close to both my siblings. DB1 lives abroad at the moment he might move back to the UK next year. Dad's affairs are not straightforward as he has lots of trusts & shares set up, various pensions, property in the UK and in France. He's handed over management of all of his income sources to the stockbroking firm who are dealing with Mum's estate so I'm hoping that will simplify things for us.

NMS - even if Dad has get 'joint & several attorneys', do banks really still insist on all attorneys signing? I don't particularly want to be the sole attorney, tbh, I would prefer my brothers to be able to act as well / instead of me.

florentina1 Wed 13-Jan-16 17:47:18

It depends how you want to set it up. You can have all of you as attorneys with Any one of you to sign. Or any two or all three. As you say it is a faff to get 3 to sign every time you do anything. We have ours as one of us to sign, but then my mum did not have much.

Needmoresleep Wed 13-Jan-16 19:06:00

PingPong it might be worth checking with his bank on restrictions/polities. My mother had an extraordinary number of bank accounts, and I had to register POA on each before I could close it. There was the odd comment about how it was good that I was the sole Attorney, or that I would not be able to have internet banking or things like that which made me think it would be more complicated if I was not the only one.

The admin is not too bad. All utilities are on Direct Debit as is the sheltered housing and carer and other bills come to me. The real work is with things like organising the carer and so on which you don't need to be Attorney to do. There is no reason why a non Attorney could not take on a big task like selling a home and simply have the Attorney sign. Attorney's have a duty to act in someone's best interest so it makes sense to consult on big decisions as you could otherwise be challenged.

My view is that it is a task well suited to someone who perhaps can't visit that often but wants to undertake their share of support.

If there is enough money you should make sure that an Attorney can charge expenses. (You just add this into the form.) This can make a lot of difference if you live some distance away and find trips are costing a lot (or if you live nearby and are constantly having to put your hand in your pocket for small items.) There is also scope for an Attorney to charge for their time, though this again needs to be in the origional document.

PingPongBat Wed 13-Jan-16 19:33:00

Florentina yes we will be appointed 'severally' so any one of us can sign, that makes much more scenes for our family.

NMS that's a really good idea about checking policies with his bank(s) - will do that before he comes home. I know who he banks with already as I'm checking his post while he's away smile

I've heard complete horror stories about the different policies that banks have when dealing with probate / estates, it's incredibly variable, so forewarned is forearmed!

The next issue will be making sure we are fully up to speed with the French assets... Not looking forward to that. Partly because Dad's incredibly slow at getting on with these sorts of things, he hates 'admin' and would rather be researching his family tree, watching detective series or reading. He will definitely need lots of 'chivvying'

Helenluvsrob Thu 14-Jan-16 22:10:15

Do both.

My 2p from bitter experience, if you can trust your co powers of attorney please don't put any restrictive covenants on it.

7yrs or more ago mum and dad set it up - grand - but they made the " appropriately cautious " or so thry thought, restriction that my sister and I need to jointly sign for amounts of 1k or more.

Fine, but she lives abroad now and 1k is peanuts when care costs £600/week....

Also, because of the limit ( that can't be changed) we can't have anything other than a cheque book on the account. No debit card. No internet banking, nothing. It's bloody difficult to administer - especially knowing I will have 6+ Months of back feels to pay to the incompetent local authority too!

Needmoresleep Fri 15-Jan-16 12:30:59

Helen, can't you set up a seperate account in your name but simply and exclusively for your mums affairs. You agree a year's budget with your sister and transfer that amount in. I can't see that there is a problem as long as her money is seperate from yours, properly accounted for and declared to both Local Authority and as part of her estate as required.

fastdaytears Fri 15-Jan-16 12:37:43

I advise on this at work and always say that P&FA is essential and H&W depends.

If your Dad has strong views about end of life care, life support machines etc then he does need to make H&W. It will also be really helpful when it comes to dealing with social services etc. Make sure that there's a provision in there for you to have access to written and electronic records too as it's not automatic.

Oldieandgoldie Fri 15-Jan-16 21:37:59

We didn't realise, but apparently there is a section in the POA where your parent grants you the right to claim un-certified (?) expenses. (Eg time spent on chasing banks etc) (Sorry, can't think of the word I mean.) I would encourage this, especially if you have overseas banks/lawyers/properties to deal with. Costs soon mount up.

PingPongBat Fri 15-Jan-16 23:24:52

Thanks all, lots of useful tips on here.
Am taking notes and will keep watching in case anyone else comes up with more

Hope you're keeping well, helenluv**srob smile

Helenluvsrob Sun 17-Jan-16 08:57:09

Hi Pingpongbat smile .
NMS that's exactly what we have done - we have a management account - but transferring large amounts is another pain..... We did a chunk on Friday , but the Saturday staff couldn't cope with it branch - including the manager who is " not counter trained" - grrrr! So in the end I suggested we do a cheque - as both attorneys were there when it was written and signed in branch it shouldn't bounce , but I wouldn't rule it out.

We continue to be astounded by how dodgy or difficult bank practices around the power of attorney are.

Helenluvsrob Sun 17-Jan-16 08:59:13

And - for those of you who's parents state pension goes into a post office card account- if you try to enact power of attorney on that they close the account ... With all the complications that brings. We found this out fortunately and have not applied it.

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