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Government's answer to petition to remove collective worship from all non-faith schools

(29 Posts)
GrimmaTheNome Wed 21-Oct-09 13:11:14

Totally pathetic answer in support of the status quo. Misses the point in the petition that withdrawal is not a satisfactory option.

I don't know what I was hoping for but this isn't taking it in the least bit seriously.

GrimmaTheNome Wed 21-Oct-09 13:39:34

anyone else sign up to this as pissed as I am?

AngelicVoice Wed 21-Oct-09 15:59:43

Isn't there better things to get worked up about in life? You have an option to opt out so do not penalise everyone who is happy to keep this tradition because you don't like it! Why should others miss out because of your beliefs?

GrimmaTheNome Wed 21-Oct-09 17:09:16

There was recently a thread on whether schools should be secular (i.e. more or less what this petition requested). Overwhelmingly there was support for the proposition. Very few saw any benefit from the current 'act of collective worship'. If you want worship in a school, you can choose a faith school.

Sure there's more important things, and I'm not that worked up about it, but if the govt is going to have petitions they might at least give answers which showed they'd given it a moments consideration. I'm pissed off by the process (petition, fob-off, end of) not just the issue itself.

Ivykaty44 Wed 21-Oct-09 17:13:59

AV - you dont have to miss out, you would be free to visit your place of workship outside of school.

Why do you feel that workshipping in school time is needed?

I would like to be able to send my dc to school without them being either withdrawn form part of school life or having to workship, when that is not part of our lives.

school is or education and workship is not part of education.

religion can be taught in school and there is a difference.

trickerg Wed 21-Oct-09 21:09:32

I visited a school today that (because of denominational affinity) had to do 2.5h of religious study PER WEEK - on top of assemblies!!
How do they manage that?

happywomble Wed 21-Oct-09 21:47:29

For once I completely agree with the government's response. Probably the only thing I agree with them on.

bruffin Wed 21-Oct-09 22:02:44

Grimma Mumsnet is hardly reprensative of other parents in the uk , and threads like that tend to draw the people who feel strongly about it. I don't know anyone in RL who is bothered about collective worship at all. Like Happywomble I think the government's response is right and I don't agree with them on many things either.

MrsGently Wed 21-Oct-09 22:47:41

Don't think many people in RL actually know their dc's are expected to take part in collective worship - it's not something the schools are shouting from the rooftops.

AvengingGerbil Wed 21-Oct-09 22:51:37

Funnily enough, I'm a person in real life and I object strenuously and also found the response to the petition (which I signed) totally inadequate.

bruffin Wed 21-Oct-09 22:56:29

Why do you think that, unless they were educated abroad, they would have had a collective worship at school when they were a child. We had the full works of hymns and prayers everyday in an ordinary north london primary. The catholics used to leave assembly for the prayers.

emkana Wed 21-Oct-09 23:01:34

I think the government's response is a very good and well argued one, and I fully agree with it.

Ivykaty44 Wed 21-Oct-09 23:33:28

See I want an attitude of kindness and sharing, looking after other people - I would like though to have the "faith" part taken out.

I can't though, so if I take my dd out she loses out onthe other good parts altogether.

You can have one without the other - just not in a uk school - you have nothing or both.

That is what I object to.

bruffin - the telegraph and times would disagree with you as they use mn to establish parents vies in the uk grin and although I probably agree with you on the fact that mn is not a wonderful parenting survey, the fact that church workship is lower now than at any other time (although it was compulsary at times) shows that parents dont think it is important otherwise they would be actuivley filling the pews on a Sunday and showing their children by example.

scaryteacher Thu 22-Oct-09 09:46:16

Storm in a teacup I think. The schools I've taught in run a couple of assemblies a week, and neither could be construed as collective worship. There may be an extract read from a book, or sometimes a visiting speaker, but very rarely was the tone overtly Christian; and even when at my last school we had the local methodist minister in, he kept it light and topical. There was time for reflection within the assemblies, but no hymns or bible readings at all.

I think you'll find many UK schools do this, and that the religious element is just not there, so practically IK, you are getting what you want. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Ivykaty44 Thu 22-Oct-09 10:06:02

The religios element is there - praying to a god and having to bow your head, this is done 5 mornings a week. It is part of what the school has to do to meet the requiments of the law.

thedollshouse Thu 22-Oct-09 10:14:47

There is no religious element in ds's school at all. No prayers or hymns. They learn about christianity and other religions as part of R.E.

When I grew up our primary school was very religious even though it was not connected to a church. We sang hymns, did prayers and had a bible reading every day. I was brought up in a non-religious family and found the spiritual side of school very comforting.

If we had a choice I would prefer there to more religion in schools, but that is just my opinion based on my own experience of growing up.

thedollshouse Thu 22-Oct-09 10:16:18

Oh and Grimma you can't choose a faith school. They are all massively oversubscribed and in our area you have to live right on the doorstep of one to have a chance of getting in.

Ivykaty44 Thu 22-Oct-09 11:09:48

All schools have the emement of religion though, whatever school you choose for your dc will have an elelment of religion, that is the rules.

AvengingGerbil Thu 22-Oct-09 11:35:04

dollshouse, you have a better chance of choosing a faith school than a secular one as it is a LEGAL REQUIREMENT that all state schools hold a daily collective act of worship. There are NO secular state schools, only state schools which break the law by not providing religious worship.

The only right the non-religious have is to withdraw their children from worship, thereby also withdrawing them from all the other information which is shared in an assembly.

bruffin Thu 22-Oct-09 11:41:13

But you have a right to withdraw your child from the religeous element. Not sure why you feel the government should bullied into catering for a tiny but very vocal minority.

If you chose to be an athiest in a christian country,you need to accept that not every one else will want the same.

Even if the times and telegraph say MN is representative of UK parents, it is only what they feel is representative to their readers IYSWIM

bruffin Thu 22-Oct-09 12:44:50

This petition only got 758 signatures, that's less than a third of the number who signed up to the "We want to field a UK water polo team in the 2012 olympics" petition which got 2400 odd

As I suspected most people are happy with the status quo.

ADragonIs4LifeNotJustHalloween Thu 22-Oct-09 12:59:00

I'm not surprised they didn't take it seriously if there were only 758 signatures.

Ivykaty44 Thu 22-Oct-09 13:53:35

well it seems odd when all these people dont bother to go to church.....

ADragonIs4LifeNotJustHalloween Thu 22-Oct-09 13:54:47

I don't go to church because I don't believe. My children can make their own minds up by learning about it as school and experiencing collective worship there.

scaryteacher Thu 22-Oct-09 17:41:23

'The religios element is there - praying to a god and having to bow your head, this is done 5 mornings a week. It is part of what the school has to do to meet the requiments of the law.'

You are wrong IK.

I have taught in 5 schools, 4 state, 1 private. The ONLY school at which I witnessed the above happening, and only twice a week, was the private school, in the chapel.

There is NOT collective worship for every child every day, certainly not at secondary level, as there physically is not room. Each year group had two assemblies a week, one in the main hall and the other in the gym, and I took tutor time 3 mornings a week. Even though I am an RE teacher, I did not make them sing hymns or pray.

It is also a legal requirement that schools offer 1 hour of RE per week at secondary level; not all schools do that either.

You are getting worked up about something that in practice at secondary level, doesn't really happen. Assembly counts as collective worship, but it isn't really that at all; neither was it when I was at comp in the 70s/80s.

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