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naughty at school

(26 Posts)
crystal2 Tue 10-May-05 10:36:01

Hi all i have not posted for ages.
( sorry this is abit long)

My ds was the boy who had his head dunked into a flushing toilet by a nursery nurse when he was 2.

Well nothing came of that no one wanted to help even the police and soc serv managed tol cover it up and every soliciter i have gone to says the same that they cant do anything...
He is now nearly 5 and in reception at school, and i am at a loss at what to do, about 3 or 4 weeks into the term he bit his class teacher.
Obviously we were mortified and we went to see the headteacher who was very reassurring that sometimes children do things like this and that even her own child had done this when he first started school.
then he hit another teacher, he was excluded for 1 day, it then got worse and he was having outbursts all the time and being sent home all the time ..he has learnt that if we wants to come home he just has to be naughty!!
The school involved CAMHS just before christmas and the school decided that he should come home at lunchtime, and after xmas he would be allowed back in school at lunch. we were concerned about add etc.. but after xmas he calmed down and was starting to calm down and the school basicly admitted that they had over reacted in the heat of the moment. we had a discussion with the camhs team and they suggested him attending a dinosaur school programme that would enable them to monitor him and try to get to the root of the problem, so we took him along and they managed to discover that he was by all accounts a normal 4 yr old, he has a bit of difficulty sharing and was sometimes quick to copy what others were doing but they are adamant that he doesnt have add.
Three weeks ago we were called in to pick him up again, he had been throwing stones and was being exluded again the headteacher refused to talk to us and ds was adamant that another child was throwing stones at him too. The head wanted us to go for a meeting on the day he was alloewd back at school and the secretary said if we could not attend then ds was not to go back until we could attend the meeting.
To try and cut a long story abit shorter we went to the meeting and were made to feel like criminals the things that we suggested a while ago were never implemented and to us it seemed that the star charts had stopped no one was telling us anything so we assumed all was ok.
I have talked to ds about the things he does but he dosent know why he does them and he forgets within 10 mins what hes done.
He had a great week last week and had loads of well done stickers and didnt hurt anyone ( the week he threw the stone he also bit a boy and scratched another).
I dont know what to do he tells me that other big boys tell him to do nast things but the teachers wont have it and tell us that he is the only child who does this.
Yesterday he threw a large stone he said he wasnt throwing at anyone he just picked it up off the path and threw it away but one of the teachers said he threw it right at her .. i dont understand why he would do these things he is good at home (no angel but not all 4 yr old boys are)and has been excluded again.
He is being seen by the senco and has some time with her every week as he has troble sharing and does have an iep, but what good is all that if they are just going to send him home all the time, he has no problems with lessons and is usually good in the class, i feel that excluding him from school all the time wont help it isnt a punishment to him and it certainly wont help him interact with the other children...
please please help i am going insane again..

GRMUM Tue 10-May-05 10:56:08

This sounds horrible and very stressful for you.I agree that exclusion isn't perhaps the best punishment especially for such a young child, I would have thought time out might work better. As he is usually good in class is the problem perhaps that he is feeling isolated in the playground? Or doesn't know how to control his behaviour in the hussle and bussle of break times? Maybe you could encourage a special friendship with one or two of the other children in his class by inviting them to play at home?

sahara Tue 10-May-05 11:07:43

Well I am in an almost similar position. My son is almost 7 and he is only allowed to attend schhol for an hour a day because of his out bursts. He still with CAMHS but I don't know yet if he has a treatable condition.

Maybe he is not happy in that school, I regret the move that took my son away from his last school because he was doing well there. But even I feel upset with this school. I feel like I am being blamed as a bad parent. Instead of trying to deal with him they just send him home. It's me going back and forth to pick him up.

Then again your son could just want to come home. It's amazing how much power it gives a child to know that they can get sent home back to the mum anytime they want.

Do you have another child at home that he could be envious of? My son went through a phase where he felt that he was missing out on any fun that was going on at home so he would just get himself sent home. Then he realised just how much it hurt to be sent home so he began to do it more. Until eventually he would just say " I'm going to be naughty today and come home" if I didn't give in to his demands.
And now, well now he is at home all the time until something else can be sorted.

I know I haven't helped in anyway. Just empathised with your situation.
Also if he is saying that older boys are telling him what to do, he could be being bullied or intimidated and for that reason alone he wants to come home to get away from them. So the easiest way to come home is to be naughty himself even if he is not a naughty child.
Sad to say but I have a friend whose son had been bullied in every school he has been to since reception.
Now at the age of 7 he has joined a gang so that he can feel safe.
It does happen.
Hope you get it sorted

crystal2 Tue 10-May-05 11:12:36

Yes it is very stressful have been having constant headaches since it started,
he does have a special freind but she is a girl and tends to want to go and play with the other girls and he gets a bit upset when she does, his other freind is a boy who also gets into mischeif and his mum says he just loves to play fight and is boystrous(??) at home the strange thing is he was told off for throwing stones the same day as ds but i didnt find out until later he was also in the same clas as ds at the nursery where the dunking happened

GRMUM Tue 10-May-05 11:19:02

During the times when he is going well at school is there anything different in his life at home? at school?

crystal2 Tue 10-May-05 11:19:37

Thanks so much sahara,
I have had the fears that he is being bullied or at leats seen as an easy target because its always him that seems to be in trouble, i remember being at school and there was always someone that would do what the other kids told them to do and then get into trouble for it and once the other kids know that he gets told off for things, its easier for the teachersto to believe that the behaviour was malicious
we have stressed these concerns to the head/dept but all are insistant that that dosent happen at their school

crystal2 Tue 10-May-05 11:29:03

grmum..
We have been following the star charts at home on the advice of the CAMHS team and praising the good behavier and giving rewards etc and he has been trying so hard to gain the rewards.. he gets a star every playtime if he dosnt hurt anyone and in the begining if he got 3 stars he would get his reward it took a week for him to do it but then it was more often so we upped it to 6 and he did it every day last week and even yesterdayhe had had his good playtimes he just seems to have fallen off the wagon when a big stone was in front of him on the path!!
But there has been nothing different at home and believe me i have tried my damdest to figure it out.. at the start of term i thought maybe itwas because we had moved to a new house and hed finished nursery and that i am no longer a single mum but have been with dp now for 2 yrs and he is fab with him ds even taken to call him daddy! so am lost..

GRMUM Tue 10-May-05 11:37:00

I think you have to get back to the school then and discuss again with them. It sounds as if he responds well to the star charts. I still feel that sending him home just doesn't seem like a suitable solution. Perhaps if he lost a star for bad behaviour he would understand the effect his behaviour is having?I have no experiance with schools in UK, but is it normal policy to exclude 4 year olds in all schools for problems such as this?

amynnixmum Tue 10-May-05 11:43:56

crystal2,
I haven't got time to chat now but your situation sounds really similar to what we have gone through with ds since sept. He's 4 as well. I have posted on mn about it but mostly in the special needs section. He doesn't have a diagnosis either but like you we are at a loss to explain why he keeps behaving like this.

CAT me if you want to chat. My heart goes out to you as the last few months have been so difficult for us but we have finally turned the corner (I hope).

crystal2 Tue 10-May-05 11:47:10

we have been trawling the internet for advice and as far as we can see it is meant to be a last resort when all other methods have been exhausted ie removing from an activity not being allowed to have playtime ..etc but it always seems to happen straight away. the info we hav found reccomends that the teachers should take into account the age of the child and if removing the child from school will affect their education and on the side if keeping the child in school will affect the education and welfare of others.
i know that he shouldnt be doing it and i don justify it at all but he would forget about it in a few minutes and just get on with what else hes supposed to do, i cant punish him at home for 2 days i dont know what they expect to achieve from this

crystal2 Tue 10-May-05 11:48:29

sorry amynnixmum what do mean by cat??

crystal2 Tue 10-May-05 11:48:58

oops just figured it out..

sahara Tue 10-May-05 11:50:07

Most schools refuse to accept that their is bullying in there schools. My friend who I mentioned before wasn't even allowed to get invloved with the discussions as this school made you sign a paper promising to let the school deal with any problems like this.

The school will continue to send him home, because he is now seen as the troublemaker.

Could you not see someone else in the education field and discuss the possibility with them. Maybe phone the education welfare officer and explain it all to them.

After all if you son is 5 then he is entitled to full time education and them sending him home is not in his best interests.

sahara Tue 10-May-05 11:53:10

Just saw your son is 4. Believe me when I say that right now no one is going to do much to help in my experience.
I have been there at the age of 4, when they told me that as he didn't have to be in school full time they didn't need to worry too much and that I should try again when he is 5.
I hope he settles, my son was excluded as most help is only geared towards 5 upwards.

amynnixmum Tue 10-May-05 11:53:49

I have to go now but just wanted to say that there will be an LEA inclusions/exclusions officer involved with ds case and if you are unhappy you could always contact them.

Also I found our local parent partnership officer really helpful and supportive. She came to meetings with me and gave us loads of advice. I have a list of all these offices in england so I can give you the number of your local one if you like.

crystal2 Tue 10-May-05 11:55:35

i totally agree he is quite bright and will be missing alot
i am going to try and speak to some people over the next couple of days
instead of them being reassuring they just insist hes the only child that gets into bother, which is nonsense as we live behind the school playing field and i see lots of fights on the field!!

jellyhead Tue 10-May-05 11:56:11

Crystal sorry about this situation. When my ds1 started school in reception we had alot of problems with him and his behaviour was not the best.
A year later he is so much happier and generally behaving himself and this is due to him being older but mainly now being in year one with an experienced caring teacher who brings out the best of him, his reception teacher was probably well meaning but didn't seem to have a clue with him so he played up.
He is another one who soon sussed how to be sent home but he does it with suddnly becoming ill and I get phoned to collect him.
Boys of this age are funny, things upset them that you wouldn't expect to and other major issues don't bother them. I think being excluded is daft and won't help in the long term. Your boy obviously can behave when he wants so the school need to take some responsibility and help him to behave approiately. He is only 4 so needs a bit of encouragement not punishment.
Are you happy with his IEP and the Senco input?

crystal2 Tue 10-May-05 11:56:56

that would be great amynnixmum i have no idea where to go first any advice is greatly appreciated

amynnixmum Tue 10-May-05 12:00:45

CAT me then crystal and I'll give you the info and fill you in on our experiences if you want.

Really got to go now as ds is apparently starving to death.

{{{hugs}}}

crystal2 Tue 10-May-05 12:34:16

jellyhead- thx i am hoping that when next year starts things will be different another mum i have spoken to says the same,
we had a meeting with the senco and the class teacher before easter and gave our ideas of hoe to encourage him but its really hard because hes ok at home, incidently the things that we suggested were not implemented until 2 weeks into the new term after the very bad week .
on his iep are 3 things have a frindly playtime, learn to share and not get angry if he loses a game and to tidy up after an activity..

jellyhead Tue 10-May-05 13:37:20

The things on his IEP seem quite sensible and the sort of issues that will get better in time as he matures and gets used to school with all its rules and regulations.
If his behaviour is ok at home it is obviously school that is upsetting him and the sending him home is just going to reinforce it. I think they need to reassess it and come up with another way to teach him throwing stones etc is not acceptable.
I wish I had voiced my wishes more strongly when my ds1 was causing problems but I thought they knew best so I did him no favours by letting his teacher do it her way eg if he wouldn't sit still she let him go and play outside so as not to disrupt the class which was all very lovely but left him falling behind in his work and being 'rewarded' for not behaving. Every child is so different but he needed a strict approach where another child would not respond to that and I didn't really tell them my views
Sorry it is so stressful for you, I still feel sick thinking about the crappy time we all had when ds1 went to school but you know your child so let them know what strategies you want to help him

youngmama Wed 11-May-05 10:23:11

I am wondering whether your ds mischievious behaviour in school is linked to the dunking head in the toilet thing.I am not sure what happened with your ds and the nursery nurse,but do you think he might now feel distrust towards any teachers,and that he is misbehaving in order to be sent home to a place where he feels secure and loved.That is just the first thought that came to mind.Has his behaviour changed since the incident with the nursery nurse

crystal2 Wed 11-May-05 10:58:14

yes it has definately changed, i moved him from that nursery and he started to settle again when two new staff members joined the nursery that had previously worked at the other nursery it was then that things started to be difficult, but the things that he was doing then were just considdered things that most two yr old boys do, the staff there werent very helpful either i think they either didnt take the situation seriously or just didnt believe that it had happened, i do believe that ds has no trust in other authority figures and the school are aware of everything but rather than helping him adjust and reassure him that he is safe they send him home for things that some boys have a tendancy to do..

crystal2 Wed 11-May-05 10:58:15

yes it has definately changed, i moved him from that nursery and he started to settle again when two new staff members joined the nursery that had previously worked at the other nursery it was then that things started to be difficult, but the things that he was doing then were just considdered things that most two yr old boys do, the staff there werent very helpful either i think they either didnt take the situation seriously or just didnt believe that it had happened, i do believe that ds has no trust in other authority figures and the school are aware of everything but rather than helping him adjust and reassure him that he is safe they send him home for things that some boys have a tendancy to do..

bigdonna Thu 12-May-05 12:17:17

hi crystal2 sorry to here about your son my son is also always in trouble at school from reception he has had a IEP and now does seem to respond better he is in year 3 now.he is the youngest in the class and very bright sometimes i think he gets bored.His behavour is getting better because he is learning not to hit back and to tell the teachers,even so he has a lable now so quite often he seems to get into more trouble than anyone else.At his school they give green forms to them if they have hurt someone and if they get 3 green forms in one week they get excluded from the lessons for a day but they have to sit outside the headmistresses office.they do not send home this seems very unfair .If my sons school did this i think he wouldf gladly get in more trouble .Is your son big for his age as quite often they r more clumsy and dont know their own strenth and remember he is only 4 his school must be able to find a better way to disapline him.hope this is some help and u r not alone it makes u feel very alone when it seems its only your son in trouble good luck

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