Schools to 'share' disruptive pupils

[JoolsToo]

whats your view?

message from Charles Clarke

[MummyToSteven]

sounds like a recipe for disaster - bet that there isn't extra resources and training to follow to each school!

[winnie1]

Where else are these young people expected to go?

[JoolsToo]

well if they behaved themselves they'd be welcome anywhere - quite simple really.

Perhaps a Swiss finishing school might help them

[MummyToSteven]

somewhere where there are appropriately trained staff, more individual attention - probably some form of unit within a school for at least part of the time. just shifting kids that for whatever reason aren't coping in a mainstream environment to different schools isn't going to help by itself, surely?

[winnie1]

JoolsToo good point (if only it was that simple) & MummyToSteven I do agree shifting children around is of no help and I do believe that these youngsters do need specialist help which does require "appropriately trained staff, more individual attention" and as little disruption to other pupils as possible. So your suggestion of a special unit within schools seems a perfectly good one. However, at some point thses kids need to learn to integrate and so I wonder if it needs to be a temporary measure only. Personally I object to "sink" schools as it seems to make the problems worse all round.

[winnie1]

Do feel that the way the government announces aome measures and the way they are reported don't help... but thats a nother issue and I must get off herea nd get some work done!!!!

[fostermum]

i know many excluded kids, who played up because they knew they would be chucked out,and as other schooling from more trained staff,its not that easy you have to get a statement first from education board this takes at least 6 monthes if they hurry in the mean time the child has a long holiday,and by the time they are 14 they rearly bother anyway as resorces will be spent on the younger ones,i dont know how to solve it but i know expelling them isnt the answer

[hmb]

But this is what happens already. I teach in secondary and we have accepted children who have been expelled from other schools. Kids that we have expelled by us have gone to other schools in the area. Occasionally these kids can improve with a new start but most often they continue with the behaviour that got them expelled in the first place.

[MummyToSteven]

so a government "non-announcement" then?

[fostermum]

why behave when they want to be thrown out though bless em!

[hmb]

The trouble is that while they are 'not behaving' (and I understand that there can be some compelling reasons for this) they also wreck the lessons for the other kids in the class who do want to learn. I think that school based pupil referal units are the answer, but that would cost money

[fostermum]

yes a unit with in the school would be a god send as you cant make the other kids suffer,there is a lot of money spent getting statements as you have to have all sorts of different opinions from all sorts of governing bodies maby some of that money could go to it,they have to pay me to keep the sweet things at my house while there off if they are in care,the money could be used to keep them in school

[Hulababy]

Also agree that sometimes a mainstream classroom isn't the best answet for all kids - back to the idea that "one size fits all" doesn't actually work. Some of these kids need alternative education to what is currently on offer - reenegagement programmes are available but not to all and are usually very limited in placement numbers. Some (if too young for reengagement) need specialist centres/units with trained staff to deal with them.

If you put these kids in normal classrooms, teacher time is spent dealing with them the whole time - through necessity to have any order at all. Who suffers - the good kids Wrong I know, but true.

If you saw the Y9 class I have with several disruptive members I am sure some of you wouldn't believe it. I'll give you an idea:

Last week I was off school sick. The Y9 class had supply teacher in. The wreck my room. A window in the door was smasked. My computer mice had all the balls removed. The keys on the keyboards have been taken out and either taken/hidden or put in the worng places. Wires were taken out the computers - well yanked out. Chairs were thrown about the room.

The supply teacher, quite rightly, refused to teach them in the end and senior management eventually came over at the end part of the lesson.

[fostermum]

oh i agree that mainstream doesnt always work for some kids,but in my line of work i see so many kids fall through the net and get no schooling and there home behavior just hits rock bottom as they spend the day getting in trouble,i aslo have a real bugbear about the kids i have being treated differently in school because they are"kids in care"
examplene child came home in tears when some work was set to do a family tree,this child was an orphane teacher said in front of class "well make a family up its not my fault you dont have one"

[Hulababy]

fostermum - that example is appalling. There is no way he or she should have said that at all, and should have dealt with it way more appropriately. Even if they didn't know in advance (which does happen sometimes) they should have dealt with it so differently.

I also teach inmates (adults and YOs) so I am also seeing the effects of disruptive classroom behaviour, lack of education, poor behaviour, etc. first hand each week. TBH the blokes I teach are pretty open and honest - and know they are benefitting from education they can see why what they were like was wrong. They keep telling me I should take my disruptive Y9s into prison with me and let them talk to them about the consequences (for some of them, not all will go that route obviously). Trouble is I don't think they'd listen

[Hulababy]

I also think it is very wrong to treat any child differently to the others for their homelife - very unprofessional. We have several "looked after" children at school but I would always treat them in the same way I would any other child.

[Heathcliffscathy]

[said smiling] jools you are soooo....soooo....forthrightly thatcheriteish (!?)

it's the parents that are the problem surely...giving children the message that they are blacklisted total failures that need special 'sink' schools along the lines of a boot camp isn't going to help their already (obviously) shitty lives is it???

bleeding heart unrealistic liberal signs off

[Slinky]

This week, a Year 4 boy at our school has been "excluded" permanently after hurling a chair at the teacher, hitting her on the head.

The Exclusion was the result of several "temporary exclusions" over a period of 2 years for violent outbursts.

[fostermum]

proberly wouldnt listen i have some friends(kids ive know for ages)that have been in prison and my other kids think there real cool because of it.although boot camp would work in some cases(if not make parents feel better lol.ive had alsorts of problems with kids in school usual one being if something is broken or stolen it must be them coz there in care god some days there not even at school when it happens but they dont get an apology

[Hulababy]

Interested to know what those who don't like the idea of units/centres would prefer to see happen, as the current situation does not work. Genuinely interested.

[Hulababy]

That's so sad fostermum.

[fostermum]

trouble is the units are the same the kids get there play up and once more they get let off to wile away the days,you need somewhere strong enough to say ok kick the walls in,smash the furniture but your staying till home time,they would calm down when the knew it wasnt gonna work

[Heathcliffscathy]

the money we spent on iraq all poured into education resulting in much much smaller class sizes of mixed ability, which i do think does work???

[hmb]

The trouble is that these kids know that there is no effective sanction that we can use . I remember from one of your other posts fostermum that you are not even allowed to shout at them if they do something awful.

Well sorry but this is just bloody daft. We all have to learn that there are rules in life that we have to follow. When we do our lives get better as well as everyone else's. these poor kids need someone to dicipline them (and I'm not talking about knocking them about, most of them have had that already), because they lack the maturity to dicipline themsleves.

It isn't enough to recognise their rights they have to learn their responsibilities as well. And people like you fostermum need sensible boundaries that you can work in.

[hmb]

Sophable, unless you are talking about classes of 8-10, with a lsw I don't think that mixed ability does work. At present I teach 2 different classes in Y9. They are both 'mixed' to a degree, in the upper set they range from level 5 to level 7 and in the lower level 3-5. These classes are setted. It would be impossible for me to teach a class that ranges from level 3 to level 7. In essence you are saying that it is possible to teach a class from age 8 to age 14 the same topic in the same lesson. In my opinion you cannot do this without harming those at either end of the spectrum. And far from feeling 'better' about themsleves at being in a mixed class the lowwer attainment children would feel even more switched off. The kids in my top set who are on a level 5 call themselves thick and tell me that they can't do the work set.