A very dull thread about dropping off times!

[Tanzie]

DD2 has just started pre-school and I am not allowed to drop her before 0850. I can drop DD1 at her class in same school at 0830, and then have to hang about for 20 mins to drop DD2. I work and if I leave the school at about 0840-0845, I can be in work for about 0905, but if I leave it just that bit later, I don't get in until around 0920-0930. I often have meetings at this time, so it's cutting it a bit fine.

Anyway (to get to the point!), my main gripe is that there are 3 children in DD's class who are teachers' offspring, and they are allowed to drop their children there for 0830, which seems unfair to me. Should I take this up either with headmistress or with the school governors? It is both their inflexibility on this point, and the one rule for one, one rule for someone else that gets me.

[poppyseed]

Hmmmm, a bit naughty really isn't it. I would chat with the head first before making it really formal. She may see your point and be accommodating, you never know!?

[Tanzie]

It just really pees me off to be standing outside (OK when it's nice but not when it is raining)and going inside and seeing these three kids who have clearly been there a while. I know the chair of the board of govs, so I thought I might approach her, rather than the headmistress (who makes me want to vomit as she is so sickly).

[poppyseed]

I suppose it depends on whether you want it to be a formal complaint or a brief aside really? Sorry you have such a sickly head - you could always write to her or ask the deputy?? Hope you get something sorted out as it does sound a little unfair to me (especially as an ex-teacher!!)

[Tanzie]

I don't want it to be a "formal complaint". I do like the deputy head, she has small kids, so I might have a word with her. The headmistress is sooo sugary and insincere, I just want to give her a good slap. And I do think 0850 is difficult for drop off if you work. I think I am probably the only working pariah mummy anyway, so it would only be one more child, they wouldn't have a classful. I could ask the nanny to do the drop off, but I do enjoy taking them to school and I see so little of the girls anyway

[poppyseed]

The deputy sounds like a good starting point. Hope that she sees reason. Otherwise at least you have the fallback of the nanny if nothing else works. Perhaps she could do the run on the mornings that you know you can't be late at all?

[NDT]

The big difference between your children and the teachers' children is that you are off-site and therefore not able to supervise, or be responsible, for your children, while the teachers are presumably on-site and are therefore supervising them. Our school supervision starts at 8:45; as we are not legally responsible for the pupils before then, they should not be on site without a parent/childminder etc. Whatever arrangements parents need to make until that time are their responsibility, not the school's.
Teachers are required to be in school for 10 minutes before and after the school day. My school starts lessons at 8:55, so teachers are required to be there at 8:45 at the latest. Everyone, however, is in school well before that, using their own free time to prepare lessons properly for their pupils. Would it be preferable for the class teacher to arrive at the very latest moment possible so that their children arrive at the same time as everone else's? That would obviously mean that there would be almost no time to talk to parents etc etc.
I don't mean to come across as harsh or inflexible, but schools are places of education, not childcare, and it is virtually impossible to preapre properly for the school day with a class-full of children. I do know what it is like, being a full-time working mother, who has tried just about every combination of childcare possible, but it really isn't the school's responsibility to provide childcare so that parents can get to work on time.

[jampot]

We had this when ds was in preschool and dd was in school although the timing wasn't quite as bad - dd in school 8.50; pre-school 9.05 but everyone found it annoying. I would be annoyed about the teachers' children being allowed in earlier and would be inclined to have a word with headmistress - let her be sugary and insincere if it gets your dd in earlier

[roisin]

I don't think the drop-off policy is unreasonable, and agree with many points in NDT's post.

But I do think the differing rules is outrageous and unfair, and would take it up with the school. Someone I know is a teacher (in a different school), and they got special permission for her to drop off her 5 yr-old early, and he would "help the teacher set up for the day". I thought this was unfair on other working parents, who weren't offered this option. If it had been my school I would have complained. (But then my school wouldn't have done it!)

[auntyquated]

i think it stinks that the off-spring od staff are allowed in there and if i was the teacgher in the nursery it would really bug me.
if they have to be there at all then they ought ot be with their own parents until 8.50.

otherwise i think the drop-off policy is fine. could you not arrange to meet the nanny at school so that you take them for 8.30, see dd1 into class then leave dd2 with the nanny enabling you to leave school at 8.40

[Tanzie]

But NDT you do come across as harsh and inflexible! How can the parents of children who are teachers themselves be deemed to be "supervising" their own children when they are on a different part of the campus and it might take them 10 minutes to get to the nursery? They are nowhere in sight so are clearly in their own clasroom preparing for their lessons. It takes me 10 minutes to leave the school grounds, so by that token, I would be "on site" and contactable by mobile phone if need be.

Why are these people given "childcare facilities" and not other working parents? And as I said, I am the only one - all the rest are SAHMs. Nursery, Reception and Year One children can be dropped at any time after 0830 (this is when the school buses arrive), so why not the pre-school? Please don't tell me these "lessons" need more preparation! It is the "one rule for one, one rule for others" that gets me, not the provision of "childcare" issue.

[Tanzie]

And Auntyquated (great name!), presumably the Pre-School teacher has given her agreement for these children to be in the class before everyone else.

As I have said, it is the difference in rules that bugs me, not so much the drop off time (which is a pain in the arse, but if rules were rules...)

[SoupDragon]

I wonder if it is to do with insurance - at DS2s nursery/preschool they are not insured to have children outside the hours of 8am - 6pm. As the teacher-parents are still on site at the school, this may be a loophole.

I'm curious as to what being a working mum have to do with it anyway? If you want the rules for drop offs changed then it has to be across the board. Working parents, SAHPs, nannies, the works. One rule for everyone.

[auntyquated]

it may have been pushed onto the pre-school teacher, or she may have inherited it from the previous teacher.

i used to be the nursery teacher in a primary school and sometimes have responsiblitities pushed onto me!!!
it is unfair on all that this is happening... i would set activities up so that the nursery looked inviting as everyone entered...sand all set up like mountains with roads passing through for eg. if 3 children were in there first they would have trashed it all before they others had a chance.
i'd complain

[Tanzie]

Yes, better still, bring the drop off time forward for everyone. But my point is that if they can let teachers' children in early, why not anyone else's who wants/needs to drop off early? In my case it's need, not want - I have to get to work by a certain time. I'd love to hang around and chat and go to coffee mornings etc etc.

[NDT]

Tanzie - I agree that it seems unfair if the teachers aren't supervising their own children - and even worse if they aren't even teachers in the school. Maybe the teachers have some sort of reciprocal agreement between them? (And yes, it could open some teachers up to the risk of being put-upon by other teachers). However, on the two or three times a week when I have my daughter with me, she is with me, in my classroom, and not being supervised by anyone else. I bring her in with me when my husband can't work from home in the morning, and unfortunately I can't predict when that will be during the week, so I can't plan my own work around it. Therefore, I take my daughter in with me so that I can get my lessons prepared, photocopying etc done, while she gets on with sharpening pencils for me, mounting work onto backing paper etc, all in my room, supervised by me. I even take her with me when I need to go to the loo! I think it's better than going in at the last minute, probably unprepared and unable to get through the school run traffic.

The problem with bringing forward the drop-off time for everyone is that although it will make some people's lives easier, it will bring other parents into the margins of needing/not needing before-school childcare and so they will be needing to drop off their children just a few minutes early as well - so the time gets brought forward and the same problem reccurs. Furthermore, most schools try to stagger their opening/closing times so that they differ from other schools so that there is less congestion during the school run and people can deliver/collect children from other schools. Also, if all the children can get in a bit earlier, then when do the staff get their lesson prep done? Impossible in a class of 30-odd children.

I'm sorry that I come across as being harsh, but I'm not a childminder, I'm a teacher. I have been involved in so many trips, residentials, school concerts, discos etc, all in my own time, when you could count on one finger the number of parents or children who have said thank you. On just about every occasion I have been delayed at school because parents haven't arrived to collect their children on time, and I can't remember ever having more than four or five apologies in my entire teaching career. Every morning, we have children who arrive early in school and hang around on the school playground for up to thirty minutes sometimes. When asked where their parents are, we invariably get the response that their parents are at work. The same children are dropped off first thing in the morning, even when it's tipping down, often with no coat, and so we have to take the decision of whether to leave them outside like drowned rats or allow them into school uninsured. Phoning the parents is useless, often leading to torrents of abuse, and the Educational Welfare Officer seems powerless to act in these cases. This is in a leafy middle-class suburb - supposed one of the "good" areas. I'm not for one moment suggesting that any of the contributors to this board are like that, but it is disheartening and sours what is in fact a fabulous job.

Maybe if you approach the Deputy Head, you could also discuss whether or not someone could set up a breakfast club at the school on a commercial basis - that would resolve all the problems you face, and would be welcomed by many parents, I'm sure. Last year some of the local childminders set up a great after-school club in the school hall, which is fabulous, and there's talk of them extending it to the mornings too. But the fact remains that parents, not the school, are responsible for arranging suitable childcare until the school's supervisory responsibility kicks in.

[SoupDragon]

"I'd love to hang around and chat and go to coffee mornings etc etc"

Snort! Yes, as a SAHM that's just what my life is like.

[StickyNote]

Mmm, me too Soupdragon .

[edam]

OK, that line may have been tactless, but Tanzie was just referring to the fact that the other mothers are SAHMs so drop-off time isn't, presumably, such a big issue for them. For working parents, can be a nightmare.

[Tanzie]

Apologies for being tactless, but this is what most of the mums at this school do! They stand around and gossip and then go off to a local cafe for a few hours or disappear off together to an aerobics class or to play tennis. I've been a SAHM in London and my life wasn't like that at all (I felt like a drudge, lurching from one crisis to the next and living in Slutsville). But most of these mums have someone at home doing the cleaning/ironing etc and younger children at the local school (which I think opens at 8.00) or at the nursery. So their day is, essentially, their own. They don't have the time pressure that I have.

[cab]

Tanzie - sorry, just can't stop myself - here -catch a bigger spade.
"They don't have the time pressure that I have" - ahem - your nanny, remember.
One slightly disgruntled SAHM.

[Tanzie]

(Sigh). If nanny does the drop off at school, this means she would have to start work at about 0830, which means her having to get up earlier. I am rarely home from work before 1830 (1930 is nearer the mark). I don't see why she should work an 11 hour day (I don't see why I should work a 10 hour day either but that's neither here nor there), which is what this would boil down to. At the moment she can appear on the landing at 0830 to hear any last minute details about changes to routine etc, then go back to bed if she feels like it, do some painting (art not walls) and have some time to herself, as she won't have any at all after 1130, which is when she has to leave to collect DD. She's a nanny, not a slave.

I've apologised already to SAHMs whom I have offended. I apologise again, but I have said how it is at this school, and it was certainly different when I was a SAHM in London.

Take your spade back please. It was never my intention to offend anyone, but I have clearly done so and don't know what else I can say.

[Tanzie]

And I am going to bed now. To get back on thread, I think I will speak to the school to see if it is an insurance issue. If it is, and the teachers' children are exempt because the parents are deemed to be on site, so be it. If it is not, I will ask if I can drop DD1 at 0840 (we are only talking 10 minutes here, after all) - if you don't ask, you don't get.

If I've offended anyone else, please feel free to vent your spleen at me tomorrow . I don't work from choice, but from necessity.

[edam]

I imagine, from your posts, that apart from your reluctance to lengthen your nanny's day, you also want to be the one who drops your dd off because it's another opportunity to spend time with her. I work full-time and really struggle to reconcile job with at least picking ds up from nursery (dh drops off). On those nights when I have to work late, I really, really hate missing that time with ds.
Sorry you got such stick from the SAHMs, I really sympathise.

[moodyme]

sympathise too tanzie, I have been a SAHM and you DO NOT have the stress that a working mother has about dropping off times/picking up times! I did often spend my days going for coffee mornings. What do the SAHMS that took offense actually do with their days- yes you are busy but you don't answer to anyone except yourself and your children - from that point of view it is easier, that's why a lot of us do it!
It would really piss me off - I think you should ask them (nicely) if you could leave your child 10 minutes earlier.

[Tanzie]

Thank you Edam and MoodyMe - you have got it in one. If I don't take DDs to school I see them for less than an hour in the morning - this gives me a bit more time with them, otherwise I only have time for bath and story when I get home and I feel like I've hardly seen them.