A levels v International Baccalaureate

[Investigate]

Does anyone in the UK have experience of the IB they can share please? In particular, its difficulty level compared with A levels, university offers, any other useful information. Thank you.

[Needadoughnut]

Im an IB graduate and I find the system much better. You get a broader general knowledge and it isn't s problem to get accepted in red brick / Russel group / Oxbridge. I plan for my DD to do the same.

[Investigate]

Thank you for replying. Do you mind saying what university course you did and what IB subject choices you made? Did you find it a very challenging two years?

[Needadoughnut]

I did Spanish, English, maths, history, music and physics. I have a BA in Sociology and and an MSc in communication both from LSE.

[Investigate]

Thanks - it’s obviously been very successful for you. Did you have contemporaries sitting A levels to have a feel for how much more challenging the IB workload was (or not)? Did the Standard level subjects require a lot of work and how did this impact on your Higher subject work?

[BuffyFan]

I did the IB back in the days when there were only a handful of schools in the UK where you could. It's harder than A Levels in the sense that you're doing 6 subjects not 3 (think of it as doing 3 A Levels and 3 AS Levels at the same time). I'm 40 now and have still never worked as hard as I did in 6th form!

But, totally, totally worth it. It's so much more well rounded, meaning your choices afterwards are far broader. Unless academically you'd struggle with it, I'm a huge advocate. I studied English, History and Economics at higher, and Chemistry, Maths and French at subsidiary level. I went to Edinburgh University to study English literature afterwards, then on to study law.

Back then I did have to educate a few universities about the IB, but I doubt you'd need to now.

[Investigate]

It’s the very heavy workload I’m concerned about. My DC works hard and is intelligent but would have to continue with subjects they find difficult (at Standard level) on top of the 3 Higher subjects which would be their choice of A levels. Would mean moving schools to do A levels instead though, so not an easy choice.

[ksb76]

My kids were in international schools offering IB up until GCSEs. The general perception is that while Higher Maths in harder than A level Maths, the rest of the higher level subjects are at a similar level to A levels - meaning that the difficulty isn't in the actual subjects but the additional workload and time management necessary to study 6 subjects rather than 3. A couple of other negatives for our family - no option to do all three sciences in the IB system. With the way that the subjects are organized, many have to continue to take subjects that they have no interest in (second language for example, or science when you are a humanities nerd). UK universities also have quite high IB entrance requirements which meant that we felt that we were setting our kids up for possible failure when compared with just doing the 'normal' 3 A levels route, studying subjects they had chosen to continue with.

[MollyHuaCha]

We had this issue. IB works well for all rounder type people. But if you are absolutely hopeless at one area - languages, maths whatever, then those subjects will bring down your IB score.

For some IB works brilliantly. For others, it's a disaster. We changed schools to move to A levels. Some of DC's friends who remained in the IB system did surprisingly badly.

Also, many UK universities prefer A levels if you are planning to study STEM subjects inc. medicine. For other subjects, IB and A levels equally welcome.

[MrsChollySawcutt]

Going through the same decision as you OP for my DD.

Until this year she has been adamant that she did not want to stay on at school for the IB, mostly because she had seen how hard the 6th formers have to work and the stress they are going through.

Now that she is in Y11, her views have changed and she is keen on the IB. This is because

• she has been to other 6th form open days to talk about A levels and look at the courses
  
• she has realised that A levels are also hard and stressful plus you have a lot less class time with a lot of self directed learning expected
  
• she can't decide which 3 subjects she would study at A level, narrowing down to 6 for IB has been hard enough
  
• she has realised that with the IB there is quite a high proportion of coursework vs all exam based assessment
  
• she is no longer certain what she want to do longer term. Until recently she was thinking of medicine but can't bear the thought of not continuing with her favourite and best subjects which are history and english.

[Investigate]

Thank you very much, all of you, for your thoughts. It’s difficult to know what is best. Like you, MrsChollySawcutt , my DC has heard from older pupils about the workload... we are going to visit A level schools but would be leaving a really good school. It’s a dilemma and a half! (Love your username! Wish career choices were as simple as they were for Jill!)

[Mentounasc]

Combing from a European perspective, A-Levels are pretty unusual in allowing students to entirely self-select three (or indeed fewer or more) unrelated subjects. In that reflect it's by definition much easier. So any other qualification that demands certain components (a science, language, humanity etc) is going to be more challenging and a better evaluation of someone 's general ability. DD1 did the German Abitur a few years back and it was waaay more demanding than A-Levels with up to 10 subjects at any time plus an extended project. But the advantage is that you are better prepared for uni, especially subjects that require a number of skills. DD is studying a Politics course which involves elements of history, sociology, language learning , philosophy - but also maths and economics. It's noticeable that the Brits on the course who didn't do maths A-Level struggled because all other nationalities did some maths post-16.

[PetraDelphiki]

Do check the required IB points for their choice of uni vs a level - generally IB requirements for a 3A at a level course would be the equivalent of As in all 6 modules... UK universities don’t seem to know how to get equivalent marks right for IB (I have this from an expert)...

[Investigate]

@Mentounasc that’s interesting. I only found out that the UK is quite different in this respect yesterday.

Lots of questions to be asked about IB, university offers, etc before we can make an informed decision.

[Investigate]

@PetraDelphiki that’s alarming! We have been told that a mid-thirties score is very good (out of a maximum of 45 points achievable) but that would still seem to require very high scores in every subject (6 subjects scoring maximum of 7 points each, plus a possible 3 more points for the additional requirements)

[BuffyFan]

The workload is hard, yes, but not impossible. Some of the subjects are closer to degree level than A Levels are - or so a history teacher friend once told me - so it's making that jump at a different point.

Really it depends on what you're hoping to do afterwards - it is very academic (not that A Levels aren't) and that's not right for everybody. But aside from the challenge for those who would choose to do three sciences, its well-roundedness is the key asset compared with A Levels. I loved that I got to study chemistry to that level even though I had no intention of pursuing a career in science.

[BuffyFan]

In terms of the scores, the universities I applied to all wanted 38-39. But that's going to vary considerably I would have thought across universities and across subjects.

[Curioushorse]

I have worked for IBO and have examined A-levels. I have been a CAS coordinator (IB) and Head Of Sixth (A-levels).

Universities will give you their opinion on the relative and relevant value of each to their courses and you can see this with their points requirements. Generally they regard both well.

Broadly (although this varies by subject) the individual IB subjects are easier than A-levels.....but then there are 6 of them. The thing that’s great about the IB is the holistic nature of the package, and that it includes the EE and CAS. Universities love those....but then at A-level you could do EPQ and perhaps D of E so that it’s not purely academic.

[Investigate]

Thank you @BuffyFan - we need to find out scores wanted for the specific courses DC is interested in, and compare with A level required grades. I’m worried that DC will find the pressure intolerable - and they are not very interested in the 3 subjects that would be done at Standard level. The scores you needed seem very high, nearly top marks in all 6 subjects? I don’t suppose you know what the equivalent A level requirements would have been?

[AlexaShutUp]

I did IB many moons ago, before it became really popular. I think it was fantastic. About a third of the sixth formers at my school did IB and about two thirds did A-levels. I think the IB workload was definitely greater, but it was worth the effort as it was a much more rounded qualification. It was definitely an option for the academic all-rounders, though, and wouldn't have been suitable for everyone. I had no problem getting university offers and went on to Cambridge afterwards.

I wish my dd had an option to do the IB, but there are no schools near us that offer it.

[BubblesBuddy]

I would not be happy for DC to continue with 3 subjects they don’t like. Surely going with your strengths is better?

Some maths above seems wonky - 6 x 7 = 42. Few degrees ask for 42. Many offers will be 36/38 and for less competitive courses, 32-34. You should look at the subjects DC are best at, and then translate them into a university course. So if it’s English, what do the universities want in terms of A levels and IB? Think about possible universities and be realistic and ambitious.

English, for example and joint MFL and science degrees are not necessarily well served by IB. Sometimes honing subjects and learning with the new, more demanding, A levels is better. Subjects such as sociology are well served by IB or other less narrowly focussed degrees. Above all, do DC really want to pursue three subjects they are not interested in? Sounds like a recipe for disaster to me. Play to your strengths!

[jeanne16]

Further maths A level is significantly harder than IB higher maths. So if your DC wants to do maths, economics, engineering etc, then the IB restricts them. They also can’t do 3 sciences.

Also I believe unis really focus on the 3 higher subjects and ignore the 3 lowers, so students start wondering why they are doing them.

[Cauliflowersqueeze]

Around 2% of post-16 qualifications are the IB, so it is still very rare.

A levels have now been reformed and it is universities who have worked with ofqual to set the standard they require, so the actual level of qualification is no different.

Higher Maths nowhere near the level of A level Maths, (how could it be with so much less time) and so universities will not accept IB students on Maths courses with Higher Maths. They don’t often make this clear.

Some universities have a preference for the depth of study at A Level, for example in medicine the depth of Biology/Chemistry is bound to be greater at A Level.

A long string of top grade GCSEs proves you can be an all-rounder. Unless you really can’t decide how to narrow it down and you enjoy splitting yourself across 6 subjects then I don’t see the appeal. I don’t think the pressure is greater for IB, it’s just broader and shallower. If your daughter would end up continuing with 3 subjects she doesn’t enjoy then it will be a disaster.

Most sixth forms offer EPQ in addition to A levels, which students really enjoy because it allows them to research independently and which universities really love for the same reason. I know there are some universities which look at the EPQ as being almost of more interest than A levels, because it’s more reflective of the work they end up doing there.

[solittletime]

If your child is keen to do well and able then I'd see it as a golden opportunity to get as much knowledge and well rounded education as possible in a young brain. In my opinion this sets you up for life and you never loose it. It gives s knowledge base that helps carry you through university and work. Not knocking A levels (which I did ) but if my dcs had a chance to do ib I'd jump at it.

[Llareggub]

I did the IB at a state school in 1991. We were the first cohort. We became a very tight group; bonding over the frankly bonkers workload and the lack of free time compared to the A level cohort.

The extended essay was great prep for degree level studies. In fact I edited mine in my second year of uni and got a first for it.

I believe I benefited hugely from it. I struggled with the subsidiary subjects but in hindsight this was a good thing. I went on to study Politics but forcing myself through subsidiary maths gave me an excellent grounding for the stats we needed at university.

Now, I failed one of my subsidiary subjects and consequently did not get the diploma. It didn't matter; my Russell Group uni took me anyway and confirmed my place before the A level students got their results.

I thoroughly enjoyed those two years of IB. Undertaking CAS (a bit like DofE) was relief from the studying. I made friends for life.

I went on to get a degree and later an MA so my early IB failure hasn't held me back. Obviously it's really hard to compare my experience with the A Level cohort because we didn't really get to know them.

It was a real leap of faith back then as the universities didn't really get it and frankly as the first cohort at our school no one else did either. I'm sad my children won't get the opportunity to do it.

I would definitely make the same decision to do it if I had to do it again.

[wherethekestrelscall]

There's so much focus on what will get you into university, what will get you a particular job, but education is about so much more than that. I think the IB recognises that. We're looking at schools at the moment, and I'm really hoping to get DS into a school that does IB.