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Which is worse 11plus or SATS

(19 Posts)
3asAbird Tue 13-Sep-16 23:22:30

I'm a confused year 6 parent.

Doing tours of local senior schools they stream based on sats result

Thought they did their own cat tests.

Looking at new system of sats over 100 pass under 100 fail.

If they fail them they resit in year 7.

How is this this better than 11 plus argument that 11 they feel like failures
Least they don't have resit the 11plus.
If SATS determine potential gcse predictions 5 years down the line and sets they in then surly it's just as bad if not worse than 11plus.

UnderTheGreenwoodTree Tue 13-Sep-16 23:43:59

We still have the 11+ in our area (Kent). It's worse. But SATS are shit too. I speak as someone who has a child in a grammar school (you have to live with the system you're in).

So much pressure on our 10-11r olds. So divisive, so anti- "education" in the long run. I love education - I'm degree educated myself and hope the same or more for my DC, but the education system sucks balls.

Brokenbiscuit Tue 13-Sep-16 23:52:08

Our local secondaries don't set on the basis of the SATS - they might look at these, but they are doing their own baseline assessments and will set for each subject on the basis of these, alongside class work/ homework during the first few weeks of term.

SATS were originally supposed to be about measuring schools. Don't know when it became all about measuring individual children.sad

3asAbird Wed 14-Sep-16 00:21:16

Broken biscuit thats what I thought
I figured sats were just for the schools and seniors decide by their own tests.
But 2 local senior schools near me do set by sats.

Also new sats think last year's year 6 and current year 6 has got harder with new curriculum and is used to forcast gcse results now.

Wondering if sats changed and now they matter more.

We 2nd week back and school mock sats started.

No year 6 parents info evening.
Stress of trying pick a seniors by October the 31st .

We not in grammar area.

Our highest performing city schools are either faith or lottery so grammar doesn't sound so bad.

UnderTheGreenwoodTree Wed 14-Sep-16 01:00:55

SATS were originally supposed to be about measuring schools. Don't know when it became all about measuring individual children.sad

Exactly so. But the schools push the pressure onto the children to get their results. I suppose it was inevitable really. The situation is dire for lower achieving children in our area - and tht includes children with learning difficulties, children without the benefit of parents willing to support/push them through education. I'm in a bad mood with Theresa May/the education system in general at the moment though. But it is bad. I can see it, I have lived through it.

Brokenbiscuit Wed 14-Sep-16 07:25:58

But the schools push the pressure onto the children to get their results. I suppose it was inevitable really.

Not in all schools. DD did KS2 SATS last year, and her amazing Year 6 teacher did a brilliant job of shielding the kids from any pressure. DD wasn't stressed at all!

I wish the same could be said for all kids in all schools.

booellesmum Wed 14-Sep-16 07:31:52

2 kids in Grammar school and the SATs were far worse.
I had the second one in tears and so stressed out over SATs but was absolutely fine with the 11+.
I think the difference was the school but so much pressure on her for the SATs and there was so much practice that year 6 was not fun.
We were very relaxed over the 11+ (We are in a super-selective area), with the attitude what will be will be.

MumTryingHerBest Wed 14-Sep-16 07:47:50

booellesmum Wed 14-Sep-16 07:31:52 2 kids in Grammar school and the SATs were far worse.

I had the opposite for my DC1. 11 plus is sat at the very beginning of yr 6 so he was younger than when he did the SATs.

He had never done proper exams until he did the 11 plus so by the time he did the SATs he had technique embeded.

He sat his SATs in his own classroom in a school he is comfortable and familiar with. There were only 29 other children. For the 11 plus he had to wait outside a very large, imposing building with approx. 800 other children, few of whom he knew.

The CEM part of the 11 plus exam had content that went above the level of the SATs.

All my local secondary schools do their own assessments at the beginning of yr 7.

yeOldeTrout Wed 14-Sep-16 07:53:02

What's wrong with 11+ isn't merely the gaming of the system (advantage to more affluent families) or the 'stress' of the test, but also the locked in development streams with associated labelling of individual children, narrow range of options that the separate type of schools are inclined to offer (grammars don't do vocational courses; sec-moderns may not offer as much academic extension).

anyway, given the stress of SATs, why have 11+ stress too?

Badbadbunny Wed 14-Sep-16 08:21:18

Not in all schools. DD did KS2 SATS last year, and her amazing Year 6 teacher did a brilliant job of shielding the kids from any pressure. DD wasn't stressed at all!

If the primary teachers start preparing early enough, then indeed, the kids don't need to feel the pressure. Trouble is that, (same as GCSEs), the teachers seem to forget it's on the horizon and then it's an almighty rush to go through all the stuff that could/should have been done earlier, thus the pressure, high levels of homework, etc.

namechangedtoday15 Wed 14-Sep-16 09:45:19

Opposite here - 2 DC just gone into Year 7 (at grammar schools having passed entrance exams/11+) and one DC just gone into Year 3. All 3 of them therefore did SATS last year (KS1 and KS2).

Enormous, massive pressure on entrance exams - one shot at it, on one day, in unfamiliar surroundings, to determine which school you'll go to. And children understand that (no matter how much you tell them its not a pass / fail scenario - you can legislate for how you approach it, you can't legislate for playground chatter etc).

SATS - yes they were prepared for them through school and got tons of work, but it was just school work, another day at school with their friends / teachers, just knew they were tests. Some schools will use them to set them, some won't. In our area, compared to the entrance exams, they have little meaning and therefore the pressure was not so great.

TeenAndTween Wed 14-Sep-16 14:15:54

11+ changes the education you get at secondary level.
SATs don't.

SATs are used by some schools for initial setting, and for general school 'added value' measures. However any half way decent school will adjust setting based on the reality of the child they find in-front of them, and will encourage a child to do the best they can irrespective on incoming levels.

(My DD1 started in set 7/10 for maths and finished secondary in set 3/10)

redskytonight Wed 14-Sep-16 14:19:12

SATS = no pressure on individual child (in theory anyway, I know some have different experiences)

The don't actually make any difference in the long run. Yes, your child might be in a different set for a few weeks in secondary.

11+ (based on what I've heard from friends) = extremely pressurized for whole family for a year or more in advance. If your child fails, that's it.

Badbadbunny Wed 14-Sep-16 14:47:15

11+ (based on what I've heard from friends) = extremely pressurized for whole family for a year or more in advance. If your child fails, that's it.

Really depends on what area you're in. In super-selective areas, it's horrid as you have to intensively tutor for a long time to hit the 95%+ admittance score. In more normal areas, the target score can be as low as 70-75%, so much less need for formal tutoring and plenty gain admittance by doing nothing more than a few practice papers to get used to the format. We didn't have tutoring, he just did a practice paper for each to show us what he could do and what he couldn't and then we worked through the bits he couldn't to explain them to him.

Also depends on the alternatives. We were very laid back because there was an excellent alternative, so admittance to the grammar was not the be all and end all. If you have pretty awful alternatives, then you're going to be a lot more stressed.

Our son came out of the 11+ smiling - he'd actually enjoyed it, and we'd been at pains for months beforehand that whether his score was high enough or not, it didn't really matter. In fact, when we got the letter confirming he'd achieved a place at the grammar, we still had a family discussion about whether or not to accept it or whether to go to the alternative comp instead - you can't get much less pressure than that.

It doesn't have to be the hell of super-selectives!

catslife Wed 14-Sep-16 16:13:37

But it isn't just about the tests themselves, but about the long term consequences.
Being placed in an unsuitable set / teaching group due to an unexpected SATs result can be easily fixed later on, being placed in an inappropriate school due to an 11+ result is very difficult to resolve.

2StripedSocks Wed 14-Sep-16 17:06:43

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

mummymeister Wed 14-Sep-16 18:47:50

Sats were far worse imo. constant reminders throughout the whole year "you have got sats and need to know this you know" plus after school crammer lessons etc. nothing like that for 11+ - 2 exams and that was it.

I do think that sats have now got even worse with the need for kids to repeat them in year 7 if they "fail" How is this different from an 11+ system which labels some kids as pass and some as fail? perhaps that was the aim all along. to bring in a sats system so close to an 11+ that the govt hoped no one would notice. no perhaps not - that would require forethought rather than knee jerk and we just don't seem to get that in education!

mellicauli Wed 14-Sep-16 22:46:44

11+ because:
1) children gave to cover stuff they haven't learnt in school yet
2) you have to study over the summer for Autumn test
3) schools can't help with 11+
4) they are more difficult
5) you are only competing against kids with motivated/pushy parents who value education

bojorojo Thu 15-Sep-16 14:06:56

It really depends where you live. Children around here that are borderline for passing the 11 plus are way more stressed than for Sats. I have heard plenty of parents say they don't care at all about Sats. They care about a grammar school place and we are an 11 plus county that uses CEM. No grammar here is super selective. There are excellent secondary moderns but only one is outstanding. Every grammar bar one is outstanding. There is quite a big difference in the quality of the schools in some areas here. Here, the 11 plus is taken in the primary school.

I think Sats are not useful for judging a school other than to say what backgrounds the children have. They do not tell anyone about progress the children make. It was always a blunt tool, on any level!

Here you can transfer from a sec mod ( here called all ability schools?) to a grammar at 12 plus and 13 if they have spaces. So anyone who is clearly in the wrong school can move but no-one ever voluntarily leaves a grammar! Sets change too and senior schools do their own tests. Sats get overhyped in schools and it is unacceptable.

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