to christen or not to christen...

[2under2]

Our local, enormous primary school does not have a good ofsted report and, due to it being close to US military base, a very rapid turnover of pupils. ALL the surrounding schools are very good, small (30-60 pupils) but CoE vonlutarily controlled and oversubscribed. We are not Christians and the thought of having my children christened makes me feel very uncomfortable, but the thought of them going to our local primary school is even less appealing. Our youngest daughter (now 1) has Down's Syndrome and we feel she would really benefit from attending a small, friendly primary school with a positive track record. I think our chances of gaining a place for our eldest, who will be four next year, at one of the good primary schools are slim unless I sudenly decide to become religious. This would seem very false to me but in a way I feel I have no choice. The whole situation makes me rather angry and I feel very discriminated against. There is one prep school nearby but it's pricey and too big in my opinion. Someone please offer their opinion on this dilemma.

[2under2]

PS - it's very hard to get into a private school when a child has special needs, so I think in all reality state schools are our only option, anyway.

[WideWebWitch]

2under2, don't they have to take some kids who are of different religions? Could you check?

I agree about the hypocrisy, I wouldn't want to find religion just to get my ds into a good school either. Do they even ask that they're christened? Just a thought. Good luck.

[2under2]

Well, the problem is that they're oversubscribed so they distribute the places by points scores. I think my eldest would only get one point, for being just outside the catchment area, but other children from the surrounding areas would get a point for location and then one for being christened, and would thus be more likely than dd to gain a place. I talked to my neighbour about this and she said to just get them christened - 'everybody does it for the schooling'. Mmmh. It's not right that this has to be the case - after all, they're still state schools. Pamina, I'll ask whether they have a non-Christian quota. It doesn't mention anything in their handbook.

[tigermoth]

Difficult, this! I think you are doing the right thing by consulting each church school direct about their intake policy. You really need to go straight to the horse's mouth to find out if non christened children from non christian church-going families stand any chance of getting into any of the schools.

If a christening is the only way, you can look at this from two angles:

You are giving your child the option of beginning life as a christian (they may choose to reject this later).

Or, the christening is the unequivocal start of their life as a christian.

Obviously if you see it from the former viewpoint, a christening, IMO, is not such a hypocritical action if you are a non-believer. I really hope this doesn't offend committed christians.

Just for the record, my son attends a church school. He is not christened - neither is his brother, who may hopefully attend the school in a year or two. The school did not ask if my son was christened. However, part of the criteria was regular church attendance. We were doing this before we applied for the school - but not weekly. I have christian beliefs, but do not call myself religious. I wanted my sons to be involved in church life because of its sense of community and fellowship. If, later on, they decide to take it further, that's up to them. I will have pointed them in the right direction. Surely no bad thing. I went to sunday school till I was 14 years old, attended church youth clubs, and went to a church primary school. The fellowship I experienced definitely enriched my childhood in lots of ways. I was influenced and befriended by some wonderful christian adults.

When we filled in the application form for the school, I deliberately put sense of community, not desire for a christian education as the reason I wanted my son to attend a church school. I felt the latter for us would have been too hypocritical. The head did not ask us if we were religious, only if we did not mind our son attending christian church services etc. We were told, after being offered a place, that we were within our rights to refuse our son taking part in the church side of things.

I'm sure all church schools have different criteria so don't take this as typical.

I hope you get a clearer picture of what your local church schools demand. Then you will be able to determine if you would feel morally comfortable about your child attending one.

HTH

[sml]

2under2
you don't want your children christened, but you want them to benefit from going to a school run with Christian values?? So maybe Christianity isn't that bad after all...

I'd squash my doubts and get them christened - they can always reject it later if they want to. I agree with Tigermoth, it gives them the choice. It's not you joining the church after all, it's them. If you feel uncomfortable about just getting them christened for the school, then why not take them to church, maybe just once a month. Then you will be making a positive contribution to your local church, so you wouldn't have to feel guilty.

PS: sounds as though your nickname is a little out of date now??!

[angharad]

My kids go to an R.C. school (we are Catholic), but "spare" places are allocated to people from other religions and those who would benefit from the school for social reasons are given priority places, as a result there are quite a few children with learning difficulties/hearing impaired etc. Could you explain the situation with your youngest daughter in the letter of application and explain that you would want all your children educated in the same school hence the application for the eldest daughter? I'm assuming that the school is either voluntary controlled/aided BTW.

[Marina]

2under2, I do agree with Sml and Tigermoth - why not explore christening issues with the parish priest connected to the school(s) in question? As they both say, this does not commit your children to a life-time of enforced church-going - or you either. I attended a C of E school despite the fact that neither of my parents were baptised or churchgoers themselves. I asked to be baptised at six and confirmed at eleven. Although I have not been a regular churchgoer all my life I do feel I have met some wonderful people through my membership of several parish churches - and that it has never been a negative, damaging influence on me at any time.
You mention that there are several small church schools near you - you may find that this means their admission policies are more relaxed than areas where there is just one C of E school. It's certainly the case in Bristol, for example, where an atheist friend of mine has had no trouble getting her son into a local church school and has had to tell no fibs to do so.
Good luck, let us know what you decide to do in the end.

[Rhubarb]

2under2, if you do send your children to a Christian school they will be taught Religious Education so you have to question how you feel about this. For instance they will be told all about Jesus and that he is the Son of God, etc, if you don't believe in this, are you happy that your children will be taught that this is so?

If you send them to an ordinary state school, the OFSTED report may not be that good, but you can always make up for that at home. Plus those schools tend to be very good with individual children, whereas the schools with good OFSTED reports have a reputation for caring only about their marks, they put pressure on children to do well and neglect their individual needs. Not all schools are like this, but my nieces and nephews all go to Christian schools with good reports, and they have problems with too much homework, bullying and so on. Also, the school picked up on the fact that my nephew was not achieving in Maths so they persuaded his mother to put him in a special needs class for this subject so that he could get one-on-one tuition. What they didn't tell her was that they then marked him as a special needs pupil so that his poor grades in Maths would not affect the schools scoring. They also did this with my niece.

I hope you manage to find the right school for you.

[2under2]

Hello ladies, thanks for the replies! Much food for thought here. I think we will go ahead and get the children christened. The village we live in is small and most of community life revolves around the church - it'd be a shame to deprive them of this just because of mine and dh's beliefs. I don't want the kids to feel that they are the odd ones out - I'm not christened and was the only child in my primary school who didn't go to religious education, and it felt a bit strange. Sml, sure Christianity isn't too bad, but I'm happily agnostic. I do wish my children could go to a good school where they could be taught about all the main religions, with equal weight on each one. But I guess I can do that at home. Ah well, at least I can shop for christening outfits now.

[SueDonim]

I don't know whether the CofE is the same as the CofScotland but up here, parents and godparents have to make promises about about their beliefs and that they will bring their children up in the Christian religion, at the christening. I would feel a wee bit uncomfy having to make those promises if I didn't believe in them, tbh.

[sml]

I think you can christen without having godparents, but as far as I remember, you do have to make promises about bringing them up in the Christian faith. Sending them to a church school seems to be a good start! Just remember, no one is a perfect christian - someone whose belief in God is absolutely rock solid might not practise Christian values towards other people, so does that make them a better Christian than someone who doubts God, but tries to have a forgiving, unselfish and caring attitude towards other people? I'm not meaning to start a religious war here, just try to help you find a way through this dilemma without feeling guilty about what you decide, 2under2!

[janh]

2under2, they get RE at state school too - I don't know how the amount of time compares, or the ecumenical-ness (???) but my kids' county school has very good religious education covering all the major religions, plus peoples' attitudes to other people and how they look after each other etc. Wouldn't a C of E school be broadly similar? (Why were you made to miss RE? Was it a state school or a church school?)
Anyway it sounds as if the benefits to your children in being chistened, becoming part of the church community and going to a small school, will outweigh the damage to your agnosticism! I hope you find some nice, rich, conscientious godparents while you're about it!

[susanmt]

Just to throw a wee aside in here - I am a Christian and was baptised as an infant. However, I have not had my children baptised and would not do so, even to get into a church school, as both dh and I hold that infant baptism is unscriptural! I am aware that many Christians don't beleive this and dont want to start any kind of religious discussion as these things often get out of hand. Funny, isn't it, though, the different attitudes we have to this? Ah, the great diversity of human experience ................... (getting all philosophical now, better go get a glass of wine and some chocolate to calm me down!!!!!..............)

[bloss]

Message withdrawn

[2under2]

ahh ladies dh and I had a big argument last night - now he says he can't stomach the thought of putting the kids through a ritual that they don't understand and that signs them up for something they might not want to be part of. Maybe we won't get them christened after all? Am fed up with this palaver. He says we should move house to somewhere more secular. Seems over the top to me.
BTW, I didn't have RE in primary school because my parents (staunch atheists) didn't want me to. Paid them back by doing RE 'o' level .

[mollipops]

We also didn't baptise/christen our children, as I feel it would be hypocritical since we are not church-goers (it was for this same reason we didn't marry in a church but used a celebrant).

Our local private Christian school is very strict on enrolling only families with christian values and beliefs. There is an interview etc. Recently one boy was asked to leave the school as it was found out by the school that his mum was in a de-facto relationship! Our local primary school is large (around 600 students) but new, with great teachers, and I am more than happy for my kids to go there!

Good luck with your difficult decision! You will make the right choice in the end.

[sml]

Well, keeping everyone in the family happy is important! Actually, sad as it may seem, I know/have heard about several people who have moved house for this very reason, including one family who moved to the neighbouring village four miles away, just to get to that school, and someone who rented out their house and rented one in the desirable catchment area. Oh the stress of modern life. Hope you manage to fix this problem to everyone's benefit.

[sml]

mollipops, that sounds amazing. Not very Christian - I have never encountered attitudes like that at any Christian school that I or my daughter has attended.

[tigermoth]

2under2, have you said to your husband that your children would be free to drop the christian rituals and RE lessons at school if they wanted to? I can understand him not wanting them to go through a ritual that they don't understand, but, isn't life full of ritual, religious or not, that's not understood by a young child?

Also, if your child goes to a church school and they're not happy, they can always reapply to the secular state primary. You could agree to give it a year, say. Not a great solution, I know, but a compromise.

Do you know of any parents who send their children to the church schools? can you ask them how strict the general attitude is? IME what church schools officially tell you and what the parents are really like can vary somewhat. I was worried when my son started going to his church primary that I would encounter a lot of humourless, straight-laced, tea-total puritans amongst the adults. I was so reassured to find they were a normal, well-meaning and nicely imperfect bunch! I'm sure some are deeply committed christians but others are not. I agree with sml's posts and, like her, think that church attendance alone does not make a person good, or a christian.

Mollipops, that church school you mention certainly goes by the letter, doesn't it? I wouldn't want to send my children there either. I have never experienced that sort of attitude to parents living in sin at my church primary, or my sons. It just goes to show how much church schools vary.

[manna]

Hate to say it - but at a christening you have to vow something like: I renounce evil. I turn to Christ. I promise to bring up my child in this one true faith. I renouce the world etc. etc. It's the parents who vow this, not the children. The parents vow to take spiritual responsibility for the children until they can (if they want to) confirm that fact for themselves at confirmation time. A christening is a public renewal of vows of faith by the parents, of admission of their spiritual responsiblity for their child and most importantly a welcoming of the child into the faith of the church by the family of believers attending the service. The congregation also have responses to this effect. As you can see, I take this quite seriously and can't imagine why you would want to do it if you don't believe it, although I more than understand the practical reasons which may make this seem like the only option. Most vicars know the score these days, especially if you live in a small village. Most school governors also know that this happens all the time. If it is a small village they may even consult the vicar on the new intakes (or he could be on the board of govenors!). I suppose what I'm saying is consider it seriously, and don't count on it as being a given that after the christening they'll get in. Personally, I would go and talk to the vicar - most of them are pretty good these days. He'll understand your mixed motives, but appreciate that you want your children to be involved in the community side of things. You'll have to go and talk to him about the christening anyway. Good luck onthe schooling - all that is still ahead of me

[Tillysmummy]

I am a christian but don't go to church regularly. I do believe and pray every night - I don't think you need to go to church to be a Christian. We did get DD baptised because we wanted her to be 'blessed' and I guess it made us feel better. She will be able to choose later on whether or not to get confirmed. I didn't realise it was such an issue with schools. Guess I hadn't got to that stage yet.

[janh]

What makes me cross is the people who get the baby christened as a social event - like having the wedding at a nice photogenic church - and are never seen again.
Also the people who attend church "religiously" (sorry...) every Sunday mostly because it's the thing to do and the people they want to be in with go.
I am atheist but have christian values - I hope. From what we are always told of Christ's teachings his church was inclusive and even sinners, backsliders and other naughty souls were welcome. I think he would be appalled about the child excluded because of his mother.
I understand perfectly how 2under2's husband feels - we never put ours through the process either - but also feel that as a thoughtful agnostic, 2under2 would be a sounder churchmember than some I know.

[Tinker]

With you on this one janh. It's like people who get married in church for the nice photos. I know if you don't believe then it doesn't really matter where you get married, why not use the church ? But, somehow, I found this "using" really offensive.

Also, I can't understand how a non believer could go through with a baptism, bearing in mind the vows you have to make.

A few years ago I was asked to be Godmother to my friend's daughter. Much soul searching and angst followed for me. The only way I could reconcile it, and I admit this is a cop-out, was to console myself that, since the parents were non- religious, they were treating it as a naming ceremony. Sort of had to mime the vows but felt a complete hypocrite.

[2under2]

just thought I'd throw in the fact that I really do not have much of a choice of schools here, and the church schools are still our local state schools, just voluntarily controlled. I am annoyed that the influence of the church extends to state primary schools basing their criteria upon whether a child has been christened or not. I really can't send my kids to 'our' primary school - they have 75% American pupils whose parents are on short-term contracts at the army base. I don't think it would be good for my children if they experienced a complete turnover of classmates every other year, particularly my youngest will probably find it more difficult than a child without a learning disability to have solid friendships and needs stability in her life to blossom.
Having the children christened would be a somewhat desperate solution to this problem which the CoE imposes on us by controlling the state schools.